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  1. #1
    BANNED Beaddle's Avatar
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    Default The Force Awakens was a bigger problem than Last Jedi

    As a person who stands by the narrative that the last jedi is still the most tolerable film of this new trilogy despite all the hate and massive backlash. I found the force awakens a far bigger mess for this new trilogy that Rian Johnson could not really dig himself out off for two major reasons.

    1. Rey

    2. Luke.

    One of the biggest problem the series ever made was not to give Rey some kind of truthful back story from the beginning. the more I think of it, the more I now despise JJ Abrams mystery box concept. JJ should have ditched that concept and given rey a good set up back story right from the force awakens. we don't need to learn everything about her but we needed to know something substantial.

    Secondly Luke's character was wasted in the force awakens, I think Mark was angry that Luke is not truly in the film and barely says a line..no lines to be more precise. what was JJ thinking? did he think fans wanted to drag this character's story out? this is a movie not a TV show of 14 episode to develop characters nicely.

    I think if they had avoided this errors, Rian Johnson would not just have done his own stuff and destroyed the entire series in the end.

    When you mess up the new lead character (Rey) and the anchor character (Luke) from the beginning, it can only lead to a bad end.
    Last edited by Beaddle; 01-28-2020 at 06:00 PM.

  2. #2

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    While I do agree Luke was wasted in TFA. Johnson was in now way boxed into a corner. There are several other ways Luke could be disillusioned.
    Last edited by MASTER-OF-SUPRISE; 02-01-2020 at 01:00 PM.

  3. #3
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    The problem was TROS which in its climax basically throws everything the last two films did out and raises so many questions about the Final Order's very existence, Palpatine's own existence and even hurts the EU because it solidifies Operation Cinder as being the single most foolish decision Palpatine ever made because he's been undead this whole time sitting on Death Star cannons.
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  4. #4
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Luke was hardly in TFA to keep him from overshadowing the new lead characters in their own story.

    As far as Rey being a bad protagonist (esp. in terms of her backstory being doled out across the trilogy instead of being at the very beginning), don't really get that, esp. since each piece is integrated into her story arc for the specific movie in question. That's actually good writing over an opening info dump.
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  5. #5
    BANNED Beaddle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Luke was hardly in TFA to keep him from overshadowing the new lead characters in their own story.
    .

    I have already used Lenord Nimoy's Spock from Star Trek 2009 to show the older veteran actors don't need to overshadow the new characters for a movie to work.

    Luke should have been in the movie a lot more.

    As far as Rey being a bad protagonist (esp. in terms of her backstory being doled out across the trilogy instead of being at the very beginning), don't really get that, esp. since each piece is integrated into her story arc for the specific movie in question.

    Rey could only be seen as a bad protagonist from the second film. the first film just sparked negative curiosity since she defeated Kylo Ren the first time she ever picks of a Saber.

    JJ Abrams mystery box failed from force awakens with Rey's character. she was already over powered with zero explanation to explain why. its bad writing.

  6. #6
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    I don't know, I still think that it would have been possible to fix the problems of TFA in the second movie, but TLJ made it imo even worse.

    Btw. I have heard the final scene (the one with Luke) of TFA was actually changed at request from Rian Johnson, if thats true he he might at least partally resposible for how Luke was treated in TFA.

  7. #7
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    I don't know, I still think that it would have been possible to fix the problems of TFA in the second movie, but TLJ made it imo even worse.

    Btw. I have heard the final scene (the one with Luke) of TFA was actually changed at request from Rian Johnson, if thats true he he might at least partally resposible for how Luke was treated in TFA.
    I've heard that too. There is an interview with Hamill that he said that the part where he is standing on the cliff something happened that didn't line up with what was in TLJ. and he called Johnson worried and was assured that JJ was taking that scene out. I don't know what that something is and it sounded a little bit bigger than swapping out R2D2 to replace BB8 as every one knows Jonson asked JJ to do.

    I have always said that this trilogy suffered from the "tag your it" in story telling. I think that Kathleen Kennedy has an outstanding resume as a producer but I think she failed in her approach to these movies. I really wish they would have had a̶l̶l̶ t̶h̶r̶e̶e̶ both of the writer/directors get together and complete an outline from start to finish of all three movies. I don't think that TFA is the problem with the trilogy is was that there was no real plan to move on from that point that makes this trilogy feel disconnected form movie to movie.
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  8. #8
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    I have already used Lenord Nimoy's Spock from Star Trek 2009 to show the older veteran actors don't need to overshadow the new characters for a movie to work.

    Luke should have been in the movie a lot more.
    Spock was used for a different purpose in that movie. Apples to oranges. (Besides, why did Luke "need" to be in the movie in the first place? The story works as is on paper.)


    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    Rey could only be seen as a bad protagonist from the second film. the first film just sparked negative curiosity since she defeated Kylo Ren the first time she ever picks of a Saber.

    JJ Abrams mystery box failed from force awakens with Rey's character. she was already over powered with zero explanation to explain why. its bad writing.
    Wrong, just about everything she does is set up prior in the movie or part of the franchise's world building. The only thing it does is not spoon-feed the audience this info. That's something those of us who know or are trained in the craft wordsmith call "good writing."

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    It coincidently turns out that Mark Hamill feels the same way.Mark wanted to get more screen time with the other characters. no shit sherlock.
    The Fandom Menace is not a credible source of information period, given the editorial bias, to put it kindly. Even if not in this case, Hamill's preferring having a different role in the first movie does not prove it was bad, just that he would have liked something else.
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  9. #9
    Silver Sentinel BeastieRunner's Avatar
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    The second Luke's in the movie, it makes the movie Luke's. He was the star of a trilogy.

    The only way they can get passed that would've been to kill him rather early on in TFA.
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  10. #10
    Astonishing Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    Han and Leia sort of had the veteran actor spots already.
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  11. #11
    Extraordinary Member Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    I have already used Lenord Nimoy's Spock from Star Trek 2009 to show the older veteran actors don't need to overshadow the new characters for a movie to work.

    Luke should have been in the movie a lot more.




    Rey could only be seen as a bad protagonist from the second film. the first film just sparked negative curiosity since she defeated Kylo Ren the first time she ever picks of a Saber.

    JJ Abrams mystery box failed from force awakens with Rey's character. she was already over powered with zero explanation to explain why. its bad writing.
    One thing that always gets me about that fight.

    Other person: Rey bests a trained Force user like Kylo Ren in a fight. It's ridiculous.

    Me: Wait! What? He had been shot by Chewbacca. He was bleeding out all over the place. He was hitting himself in the side or leg to keep from going numb and spurting blood everywhere when he did it. He also fought Finn. Then he fought Rey and had her beaten until he said something that made her tap the Dark Side. They went miles out of their way to make it clear she could not have beaten him under even starting circumstances and only won because he was fighting under a major handicap of being almost mortally wounded."

    Other person: Yeah she didn't tap the Dark Side. She tapped the Mary Sue side.

    It's like they just don't like her and every detail of what actually happened is irrelevant.
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  12. #12
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    One thing that always gets me about that fight.

    Other person: Rey bests a trained Force user like Kylo Ren in a fight. It's ridiculous.

    Me: Wait! What? He had been shot by Chewbacca. He was bleeding out all over the place. He was hitting himself in the side or leg to keep from going numb and spurting blood everywhere when he did it. He also fought Finn. Then he fought Rey and had her beaten until he said something that made her tap the Dark Side. They went miles out of their way to make it clear she could not have beaten him under even starting circumstances and only won because he was fighting under a major handicap of being almost mortally wounded."

    Other person: Yeah she didn't tap the Dark Side. She tapped the Mary Sue side.

    It's like they just don't like her and every detail of what actually happened is irrelevant.
    That has been my observation, too. The whole "Rey is a Mary Sue" thing is wrong on all levels, yet some people still try to push it seemingly because they must justify disliking a character or something
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  13. #13
    Astonishing Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    Do we even know if Kylo/Ben was really that well trained in lightsaber combat? His fall seemed to happen when he still a Padawan according to TLJ, and even Snoke seems to say his training is incomplete in TFA.

    I suppose he could've got some training somehow with the Knights of Ren....
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  14. #14
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeastieRunner View Post
    The second Luke's in the movie, it makes the movie Luke's. He was the star of a trilogy.

    The only way they can get passed that would've been to kill him rather early on in TFA.
    I don't buy into that logic at all. Films have co-leads. The original plan would have worked fine. Rey comes across Luke halfway through the film, giving her time for development, and then Luke steps and it's a Star Wars road trip. Not to mention that Daisy Ridley is a compelling screen presence and can hold her own.

    Understand that I'm not slamming the films as they are. I'm just saying that however good they turned out, I think Disney missed a huge opportunity to have the original gang back onscreen together. There isn't anything comparable in pop culture at this moment. You've got the Avengers, but they don't have a film history going back over forty years.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    I don't know, I still think that it would have been possible to fix the problems of TFA in the second movie, but TLJ made it imo even worse.

    Btw. I have heard the final scene (the one with Luke) of TFA was actually changed at request from Rian Johnson, if thats true he he might at least partally resposible for how Luke was treated in TFA.
    The story I heard was that Luke was still going to be connected to the force but JJ changed it as a favor to Rian. However that's second hand information so take it with a grain of salt.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeastieRunner View Post
    The second Luke's in the movie, it makes the movie Luke's. He was the star of a trilogy.

    The only way they can get passed that would've been to kill him rather early on in TFA.
    I have to disagree. Han's appearance in The Force Awakens didn't suddenly make him the star of the movie for me. So I don't see why Luke being there would change the focus.

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