The Force Awakens was a bigger problem than Last Jedi

[ChrisIII]

TLJ for some reason doesn't really explain why Luke suddenly decided to re-connect to communicate with Leia (Who he's not aware is injured, at least until then). All of a sudden he's not only doing that but using his powers to destroy one of the huts, pick up a weapon, communicate with Yoda and of course his projection thing.

[Beaddle]

I've heard that too. There is an interview with Hamill that he said that the part where he is standing on the cliff something happened that didn't line up with what was in TLJ. and he called Johnson worried and was assured that JJ was taking that scene out. I don't know what that something is and it sounded a little bit bigger than swapping out R2D2 to replace BB8 as every one knows Jonson asked JJ to do.

I have always said that this trilogy suffered from the "tag your it" in story telling. I think that Kathleen Kennedy has an outstanding resume as a producer but I think she failed in her approach to these movies. .

that's the thing with the producer title , perhaps Kennedy is a female Simon Kinberg. they put their name on producers credits and people think that are good for the franchise. Once you make them actual head runners, they are exposed as hacks.

I really wish they would have had a̶l̶l̶ t̶h̶r̶e̶e̶ both of the writer/directors get together and complete an outline from start to finish of all three movies. I don't think that TFA is the problem with the trilogy is was that there was no real plan to move on from that point that makes this trilogy feel disconnected form movie to movie

Yes, I think her argument against this was star wars was not like harry Potter that already had a template. she said there are no source materials for star wars, I could have sworn Lucas almost gave her.... the what **** are you talking about look when she said so.

She really was just making things as they go with no plan and the force awakens kicked of this mess. rey was her lead character she knew nothing about.

[Beaddle]

TLJ for some reason doesn't really explain why Luke suddenly decided to re-connect to communicate with Leia (Who he's not aware is injured, at least until then). All of a sudden he's not only doing that but using his powers to destroy one of the huts, pick up a weapon, communicate with Yoda and of course his projection thing.

Worse, The Last Jedi never explained how Luke and Leia can still be on good terms after Luke nearly tried to kill Ben, her son. Even if Leia by some chance had forgiven Luke for that kind of betrayal, I still think the moment will linger with them and will strain their relationship forever. which is why Han Solo and Luke been wasted in The Force Awakens was bad. there should have been a set up conflict between Han/Leia vs Luke over Ben's situation that should have been explored more in Last Jedi.

[BeastieRunner]

I have to disagree. Han's appearance in The Force Awakens didn't suddenly make him the star of the movie for me. So I don't see why Luke being there would change the focus.

Han was never the narrative focus of the OT. Luke was. Luke's journey was for the fate of the galaxy. Han could be thrown out of the OT and it would have not changed anything.

[Godzilla2099]

Jeez,

How can I put this extremely politely? This new trilogy was a complete mess in story-telling. (I'm seriously never saying anything bad about the prequels again). It lacked direction and focus. So many things were thrown at us that came out of nowhere. Much of it made no sense. The Casino Planet in TLJ? What was even the point of it? Why was the plan kept so secret? Did it even address they were concerned about a spy or anything?

To address Luke and Rey

Luke: Ok, he's a miserable hermit now. The same Luke that fought all odds to destroy the Death Star. The same Luke still did everything he could to save his father when other masters like Yoda and Kenobi said he's a lost cause.

I understand everybody has their high and lows but this could have easily been addressed. Have Luke wandering and before he reaches a village, an avalanche is about to destroy it. Before Luke could do anything, the elders of the village used the Force to save everybody. Turns out those villagers were the children Anakin was supposed to kill in the Jedi Temple (which I still don't believe he'd do). They never used their powers for good reason. This snaps Luke out of his state and he returns.

Rey: This character was forced on us. Plain and simple. After hearing the force is real, she's able to pilot the falcon, resist telepathy, use telepathy, telekinsis, and although never used a lightsaber, beats Kilo Ren.

It wasn't Luke that saved Ben Solo but Rey
It wasn't Anakin or Luke that brought balance to the Force but Rey
It wasn't Anakin killing the Emperor but Rey

Can you blame so many Star Wars Fans for being so peeved? Look at what our favorite characters that we loved so much are reduced to. And for what?
To make Rey look like some savior?

Why? Apparently its not for the sake of hiring talent nor to tell a good story

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/...141719033.html

[ChrisIII]

Leia seemed to blame Snoke in TFA for Ben's fall.

[Moon Ronin]

Leia seemed to blame Snoke in TFA for Ben's fall.

Luke pretty much says the same in TLJ that "Snoke had turned his heart". Then he thought about killing him...

[Anthony W]

Luke pretty much says the same in TLJ that "Snoke had turned his heart". Then he thought about killing him...

Ugh. If Disney wanted to cash in on the OT why go out of the way to crap on the characters? Why not just make a new trilogy in another period to begin with? Why retroactively make the entire trilogy about Palpatine?

[MASTER-OF-SUPRISE]

Han was never the narrative focus of the OT. Luke was. Luke's journey was for the fate of the galaxy. Han could be thrown out of the OT and it would have not changed anything.

I can't agree with you on either of these. I personally think Han's death in either trilogy would be a big deal. Sure Luke was the focus but Han clearly played a role in the dynamic.

Leia seemed to blame Snoke in TFA for Ben's fall.

Luke pretty much says the same in TLJ that "Snoke had turned his heart". Then he thought about killing him...

Personally I always took that quote as another case of Luke looking to avoid admitting he was wrong. It doesn't help that it extra material that it's revealed Kylo didn't even burn down the school. Don't look at me I didn't write the comics.

I think the sequel trilogy honestly would've been better off not being part of the Skywalker saga. Making everything a clean slate would've been better.

[Jackalope89]

I can't agree with you on either of these. I personally think Han's death in either trilogy would be a big deal. Sure Luke was the focus but Han clearly played a role in the dynamic.





Personally I always took that quote as another case of Luke looking to avoid admitting he was wrong. It doesn't help that it extra material that it's revealed Kylo didn't even burn down the school. Don't look at me I didn't write the comics.

I think the sequel trilogy honestly would've been better off not being part of the Skywalker saga. Making everything a clean slate would've been better.

Yeah, wasn't a fan of The Force Awakens. Then I heard about what happened in The Last Jedi with Luke, a guy that had been hopeful enough, optimistic enough, and strong enough (as a person, not necessarily in the Force) to turn his father back, to suddenly try and kill his nephew...

Talk about a disconnect. And in interviews with Mark Hamill, you can see he's not exactly happy about the direction that was taken for Luke in this trilogy.

[David Walton]

The story I heard was that Luke was still going to be connected to the force but JJ changed it as a favor to Rian. However that's second hand information so take it with a grain of salt.

I remember hearing the same thing. Can't recall the source. The idea was that when Rey arrived on Ach-To, Luke was levitating several large boulders to show how powerful he'd become in the Force.

I have to disagree. Han's appearance in The Force Awakens didn't suddenly make him the star of the movie for me. So I don't see why Luke being there would change the focus.

Agreed, and I don't see the problem with him being a co-lead. He certainly was in TLJ so TFA just delayed the inevitable, if that's what they wanted to avoid.

Introducing Luke halfway through TFA would have solved some pacing problems that arise in the ST--Luke has only a few seconds of screen time in TFA, jumps to co-lead (and arguably the primary focus) in TLJ, and then gets only a few lines in TROS.

But, and here's the big caveat, I realize I'm discussing hypotheticals about a film that was never made. I have my personal biases, but at the end of the day, creative people made creative choices, and I think we got three films that are pretty good.

[lowfyr]

One thing that always gets me about that fight.

Other person: Rey bests a trained Force user like Kylo Ren in a fight. It's ridiculous.

Me: Wait! What? He had been shot by Chewbacca. He was bleeding out all over the place. He was hitting himself in the side or leg to keep from going numb and spurting blood everywhere when he did it. He also fought Finn. Then he fought Rey and had her beaten until he said something that made her tap the Dark Side. They went miles out of their way to make it clear she could not have beaten him under even starting circumstances and only won because he was fighting under a major handicap of being almost mortally wounded."

Other person: Yeah she didn't tap the Dark Side. She tapped the Mary Sue side.

It's like they just don't like her and every detail of what actually happened is irrelevant.

That Always gets me, too. I mean should they have paused the movie and have someone explain to the Viewer, that Ren is seriously hurt and that is why she has a Chance? A lot of People make it Sound like she fought him unwounded and had an easy win.

And that is not even getting into the stuff that Anakin and luke did with Little or no Training.

[WebLurker]

That Always gets me, too. I mean should they have paused the movie and have someone explain to the Viewer, that Ren is seriously hurt and that is why she has a Chance? A lot of People make it Sound like she fought him unwounded and had an easy win.

Yeah, whenever people try to claim that that makes no sense, that tells me they either expected the movie to spoon-feed them or they're being disingenuous.

And that is not even getting into the stuff that Anakin and luke did with Little or no Training.

Yeah, funny how that's a bad thing when the franchise's first female protagonist does it, isn't it?

[godisawesome]

The way I see it, TFA definitely had some limitatations that it out on the Seauel Trilogy and on TLJ... but in order for TFA to be considered a greater problem than TLJ, TLJ would have had to either fix some flaws or uncover some new strengths to use in its place. It didn’t. TLJ introduced far more liabilities than had been there before, in part because it aggravated and succumbed parts of the story to TFA’s worst possible outcomes, and in part because it dropped a few of TFA’s undeniable strengths or failed to follow up on them.

TFA was undoubtedly conventional in a lot of ways. It made sure that the overall external conflict of the ST would be a retread of the OT’s war, and left the door *open* for the only Skywalker grandkid to be a mass murdering fascist who added nothing new to Star Wars by himself, and left the door *open* to Luke being unrecognizable or wasted.

But it also had FINN, by far the most in depth character of the Sequel Trilogy with the most original story elements, and easily the best male lead the ST saw...

It had Rey at her best, when she was written in an intriguing way and had some potential for struggle going forward against Kylo (since they *did* make sure the story had explanation for him losing that fight), not to mention the only film of the three where she reacts to Kylo in a human way - she sees a monster, she calls him a monster, she treats him as a monster.

It also used its OT3 member the best, though that’s partially because of the tragedy of Fisher’s passing. Han has an arc that’s decent, helps Finn and Rey’s story, and even supplies Kylo his Trilogy defining moment (much to LFL’s eventual dismay.)

TLJ is the film that made it so there was no hope for the Skywalkers, because it rejected Rey Skywalker as too predictable, and was blinded to the fact that Kylo wa sinadequate to be the only member of the family in his generation. TLJ is the one that went with the worst possible scenario for Luke’s story in terms of why he was gone, abandoning any option for Luke investigating the Force, or being made Rey’s real trainer and pseudo-paternal figure. TLJ was the film that doubled down on the repetitive nature of the main war, even trying to rename the Resistance the Rebellion, and made the somewhat professional and competent First Order from TFA a collection of idiot Saturday morning cartoons villains.

It was TLJ that shoved Finn and all its own POC character is to a badly plotted and pointless sideplot where theynfailed for not following the instructions of their white commander, and did so while studiously ignoring Finn’s total progress in TFA and regressing him back a half-step so he could learn the same lesson.

It was TLJ that looked at the mass murderer who’d personally violated Rey’s mind while torturing her, maimed one of her friends, and killed another, and said “Well, she has to still find this guy just naturally attractive and sympathetic, doesn’t she? He’s the Skywalker, he’s a sad white dude, who wouldn’t fall for that!?!” which pretty much screwed over her character and the central character conflict of the ST going forward.

People blame TROS for overriding and stepping on TLJ’s toes. But TROS still has all the double standards that Kylo enjoys over Rey and Finn that TLJ introduced, TROS follows TLJ in dismissing Finn and supplanting him with Kylo as the main lead, and TROS clearly felt like it couldn’t make Rey a Skywalker because TLJ didn’t, even if it decided to fudge the details with Palpatine because it recognized that Rey was disconnected from the story.

TROS has just enough of TLJ’s flaws to make those same elements just as fatal as the lingering issues form TFA. TFA may not have been a healthy movie for the ST... but TLJ was a cancer to the ST.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Honestly i thought the Last Jedi was a better Rey film while the Force Awakens was a better Finn film.

The Last Jedi did a better job exploring her baggage with them versus FA where it felt too vague to connect with for me personally. I didn't need her to be a Kenobi or Palpatine etc (i know she was revealed to be) but i would've preferred some specific information like with Jyn or Ezra's.