Characters Who Outlived Their Point

[Agent Z]

Both Jason Todd and Tim Drake were introduced to fill a hole. Why create that hole to begin with? Making Damian Wayne into the new Robin was more frustrating - there was no hole to be filled, Tim Drake was doing fine. It seems nuts to me that Robin existed as a viable ongoing series for so long and they just threw it away.

Christopher Priest has said that the biggest mistake the comic industry ever made was having Dick Grayson grow up. I wouldn't necessarily go that far, but it was a big mistake that had a domino effect.

Letting Dick grow up wasn't a mistake. It is a completely separate issue from what is going on with Tim, Jason and Damian. People like using stuff like this as some kind of scapegoat for DC and Marvel's problems.

[Frontier]

That can be both a blessing and a curse though. Modern superhero fiction can get really dumb when it tries to get too mature and fails.

Like Cry For Justice or Identity Crisis. Though those are obviously extreme and not the only attempts.

Well, over-indulging in anything tends to not end well, but I think the medium has ultimately benefited from trying to retain the core of the characters while also addressing topical or adult issues, or treating them seriously.

I mean Captain Nazi is a flying super-human menace, I don't think "realism" is what I'm going for here exactly.

But I think that WWII Nazis have been pop-culturized (?), for lack of a better word, to the point that they're often treated as cartoons. In sharp contrast, I think a neo-Nazi variant of Captain Nazi could actually be handled with some depth and some horror that'd be really interesting to dive into. There's an "othering" to Nazis in culture that paradoxically makes them seem safer, because that treatment doesn't require a severe engagement with those hideous views, or the people who hold them to this day. They're just "bad guys." In this case, humanizing them, allowing sympathy to mix with the horror and disgust, makes their evil more potent.

A Neo-Nazi Captain Nazi would still always have an unbreakable tie to the historical Nazis, but in a lot of ways it's scarier for him, in my opinion, to be held at the same remove from 1930s Germany as the rest of us, and still decide that he agrees with those ideas and wants to be associated with them, and is willing to undertake violence to make it happen.

And of course in the blue corner is Freddy Freeman, an impoverished, disabled boy who takes one look at that, narrows his eyes and cracks his knuckles. Champion of the Oppressed is right!

I've never seen Captain Nazi as a cartoon or caricature. A Neo Nazi would probably feel more topical or relevant, but somehow come off more like a joke, I think? But that's just me.

Vast majority of comic readers are adults. While the top comic company Marvel never cared much for sidekicks.

Marvel has sidekicks, they're just different from DC's (and aren't quite as popular).

[king81992]

Letting Dick grow up wasn't a mistake. It is a completely separate issue from what is going on with Tim, Jason and Damian. People like using stuff like this as some kind of scapegoat for DC and Marvel's problems.

The mistake was making Batman more grimdark and not spreading the Bat family out across the DC universe.

[manwhohaseverything]

Jason being robin isn't his defining moment(aside from getting killed as one) and it can't even called a tenure. He isn't in a position similar to damian and tim. He has found his place, similar to dick. So, i don't understand how he being there causes any problem.they could just go Gotham by gaslight movie route and have batman adopt all three together and relatively same time.retcon the three of them living in the mansion when dick was robin. Later, jason takes the mantle. Which doesn't last long. After a couple of years and tim's insistence he becomes robin..

[Restingvoice]

I've never seen Captain Nazi as a cartoon or caricature. A Neo-Nazi would probably feel more topical or relevant, but somehow come off more like a joke, I think? But that's just me.

Captain Nazi was viewed as a joke because one, he looks hammy, two, people thought Nazi is a thing past. Part of distant history that won't be able to rise again because surely people today will reject an idea that's obviously evil. It's relevant now though.

[Agent Z]

Perhaps unsurprisingly, Marston's ideas are not progressive by today's standards and him working his weird fetishes into his feminist opus (thereby undermining it in many ways) is not a secret. Or that he didn't always practice what he preached.

But it could also be interpreted as anti-kink shaming. He had both "good" and "bad" bondage in his stories: the consensual bondage between the Amazons on Paradise Island was seen as fun and liberating, the forced bondage and chains at the hands of Heracles (or male villains binding Diana's bracelets together) was depicted as sinister. He also drew about suffragette images like the below, inspiration for Wonder Woman throwing off the chains of the patriarchy. She always triumphantly broke herself free from man's dominion.
Attachment 92410

It's also speculated that Sadie Elizabeth and Olive Byrne had input in Wonder Woman's creation, and confirmed that his secretary Joye Murchison ghost wrote several of the later WW stories in the Golden Age run. Some of this eroticism may have been the input of female contributors. He also correctly called out how traditionally feminine attributes are depicted as being weaker and lesser than masculine attributes, which is why his goal was to combine feminine attributes with the power of Superman.

He was a kinky old bugger and an admirer of women, sometimes to the point of over-admiration. Basically, he was a complicated individual. But boiling down the original Wonder Woman to just being a fetish or that all of his ideas were dangerous is an oversimplification.

Calling what Marston was saying in the quote "anti-kinkshaming" is being incredibly flattering. That he is saying this about Dorothy Woolfolk who was one of the first women to work in the American comic book industry is even more appalling. And the cherry on top is what Woolfolf was complaining about that prompted this response from Marston in the first place.

For a story about Mars, the God of War, Marston gave Peter elaborate instructions for the panel in which Wonder Woman is taken prisoner:

“Closeup, full length figure of WW. Do some careful chaining here—Mars’s men are experts! Put a metal collar on WW with a chain running off from the panel, as though she were chained in the line of prisoners. Have her hands clasped together at her breast with double bands on her wrists, her Amazon bracelets and another set. Between these runs a short chain, about the length of a handcuff chain—this is what compels her to clasp her hands together. Then put another, heavier, larger chain between her wrist bands which hangs in a long loop to just above her knees. At her ankles show a pair of arms and hands, coming from out of the panel, clasping about her ankles. This whole panel will lose its point and spoil the story unless these chains are drawn exactly as described here.”

Later in the story, Wonder Woman is locked in a cell. Straining to overhear a conversation in the next room, through the amplification of “bone conduction,” she takes her chain in her teeth: “Closeup of WW’s head shoulders. She holds her neck chain between her teeth. The chain runs taut between her teeth and the wall, where it is locked to a steel ring bolt.”

....But then Dorothy Roubicek, who helped edit Wonder Woman—the first woman editor at DC Comics—objected to Wonder Woman’s torture, too.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-...man-180952710/

Marston's views aren't just a bit dated. They are outright dangerous and antithetical to his supposed goal of making a feminist character.

[manwhohaseverything]

Curious, before the dragging, why they're not interested in Superman?

Well, they felt he was boring including the setting. Kids need imagination, action and heart. Superman just felt like soap opera drama for them.strangley enough, he is the reason i started regularly reading comics. Especially, now. I was a casual fan during end of 2000s preflashpoint era and much new52.

[Restingvoice]

Well, they felt he was boring including the setting. Kids need imagination, action and heart. Superman just felt like soap opera drama for them.strangley enough, he is the reason i started regularly reading comics. Especially, now. I was a casual fan during the end of the 2000s pre flashpoint era and much new52.

Gotta admit, felt the same. The costume, the setting, and the villains weren't interesting to me. I knew about Brainiac and Zod, but Luthor is the face of the villains and he doesn't look as exciting as The Joker. Metropolis in the movies look like any city in the world compared to Gotham, the Burton-Schumacher version. Superman's image too, I wasn't interested because he feels like the dad that will tell me off if I do something naughty, while what I want to read comics is to have fun.

I don't remember if I felt Superman is a soap opera, but because the three main characters, Clark, Lois, and Lex all look like normal humans, I can see why they think that. It's not as stimulating. It looks like an adult's world.

The first time I was interested in Superman was when they made him young and edgy in Earth One because I had that phase, and in New 52 where, he's not edgy, but still younger and feels more exciting than the dad image. By this point though, I'm liking the dad's image.

[nhienphan2808]

What does "exotic" mean in this case? Not white?

Not as in race or looks , More achertypes I think. I don’t think they should take up that much of Batman mythos and characterization. This limited to the Bronze Age - 90s Dennis O’Neil characters particularly.

Denny O’Neil and I have very different opinions about who Batman really is. It’s not who they serve as that’s the point, it’s who they served. Batman as I view him don’t NEED immortal demons, ninjas or Peak Martial Artists to further his “shadow” narrative, at least not now anymore. I mean they are interesting, but I always feel like one or two storylines are enough.

[Agent Z]

Not as in race or looks , More achertypes I think. I don’t think they should take up that much of Batman mythos and characterization. This limited to the Bronze Age and Dennis O’Neil characters particularly.

Cass isn't from the Bronze Age and wasn't created by O'Neil.

The purpose of the al Ghuls was to create new and interesting villains instead of relying on the same guys over and over again. Every comic writer does this. I don't see why they should be limited to one or two storylines when there are enough Joker stories to fill a library despite largely being the same thing.

[Aahz]

I haven't read a Batman comic in ages. I know after A Lonely Place of Dying Bruce put Tim in a private school for exceptional students that traveled around the world (because Bruce wasn't just going to give Tim the Robin mantle and made Tim earn it the hard way even though Tim played Robin behind Bruce's back overseas when he was fighting King Snake)

No Batman send him to train with a martial Arts master in Paris for some time, but appart from this Tim went to an pretty ordinary public school untill after No Man's Land, when his father put Tim in a Boarding School.

[nhienphan2808]

Denny O’Neil and I have very different opinions about who Batman really is. It’s not who they serve as that’s the point, it’s who they served. Batman as I view him don’t NEED immortal demons, ninjas or Peak Martial Artists to further his “shadow” narrative, at least not now anymore. I mean they are interesting, but I always feel like one or two storylines are enough.

[Otto Gruenwald]

Gotta admit, felt the same. The costume, the setting, and the villains weren't interesting to me. I knew about Brainiac and Zod, but Luthor is the face of the villains and he doesn't look as exciting as The Joker. Metropolis in the movies look like any city in the world compared to Gotham, the Burton-Schumacher version. Superman's image too, I wasn't interested because he feels like the dad that will tell me off if I do something naughty, while what I want to read comics is to have fun.

I don't remember if I felt Superman is a soap opera, but because the three main characters, Clark, Lois, and Lex all look like normal humans, I can see why they think that. It's not as stimulating. It looks like an adult's world.

The first time I was interested in Superman was when they made him young and edgy in Earth One because I had that phase, and in New 52 where, he's not edgy, but still younger and feels more exciting than the dad image. By this point though, I'm liking the dad's image.

Superman was super-popular with kids back in the silver age because the world he inhabited was a wonderland. You had kandor, and time travel, and the Legion of Superheroes, and Jimmy Olsen getting superpowers, and an alien zoo in the Fortress of Solitude, it was the largest and most colorful superhero mythology of its time. And you would get 2-3 stories an issue.

Nowadays you get a story ever 2-3 issues.

[manwhohaseverything]

Gotta admit, felt the same. The costume, the setting, and the villains weren't interesting to me. I knew about Brainiac and Zod, but Luthor is the face of the villains and he doesn't look as exciting as The Joker. Metropolis in the movies look like any city in the world compared to Gotham, the Burton-Schumacher version. Superman's image too, I wasn't interested because he feels like the dad that will tell me off if I do something naughty, while what I want to read comics is to have fun.

I don't remember if I felt Superman is a soap opera, but because the three main characters, Clark, Lois, and Lex all look like normal humans, I can see why they think that. It's not as stimulating. It looks like an adult's world.

The first time I was interested in Superman was when they made him young and edgy in Earth One because I had that phase, and in New 52 where, he's not edgy, but still younger and feels more exciting than the dad image. By this point though, I'm liking the dad's image.

Morrison's run was got me into reading superman for a while. Then things kinda changed, i got bored again. Because other writers didn't seem to get that guy.so, i would read older stuff from time to time. Just to see what superman of different eras were like. It was kindof an experiment because i learned that superman's original s-shield wasn't like the current one from somewhere(i think it was nerdsync). I thought superman was always like this. Postcrisis was too much drama for me .Then i got to alan moore stuff, that became my favourite . And Then i read original comics by jerry siegel and joe shuster. It was mind blowing. As a kid, i used to love phantom and tintin.it was the same experience, maybe its nostalgia or something . Then i watched max fleischer cartoons cause of kaptainkristein(youtuber) video on goldenage of animation. It blew me away further.

Strangley enough, i began to understand why morrison gets superman better than most other writer, atleast for me. I began to understand his thought process regarding character like the bullet point origin, the wierd settings and power in allstar, the young champion who fights for the downtrodden in action, the rulebreaking vigilante, dead parents.. Etc. Superman should look simple so that even a kid could understand. It's like a good joke. But, joke can have hidden meaning, deep messages, commentary.. Etc.

While, i was on this casual stroll around superman's history . i met my cousins and her children after i got in touch my mother's family after years. My nephew became kind of my favorite kid. Sort of like my son. I never had a family, you know. I lost my aunt who adopted me, just last year. So, i was kindof lonely. It was the reason morrison's superman kind of connected with me, especially after last year. I was an orphan. He was an orphan. Batman too. But, He just didn't have the optimistic resilience. i couldn't connect with him.i like dick grayson and strangley, jason for some reason though.jon became a thing me and my nephew bond over. Superman in general is like that.

[Lee]

Letting Dick grow up wasn't a mistake. It is a completely separate issue from what is going on with Tim, Jason and Damian. People like using stuff like this as some kind of scapegoat for DC and Marvel's problems.

It's not a separate issue at all. If Dick Grayson had remained a kid, remained Robin, then Jason Todd and Tim Drake would never have been created. Damian Wayne may never have become Robin - there'd be no precedent for it.

If Dick wasn't aged up, then the other Teen Titans wouldn't have been aged up either. All of these characters would have clearer directions - no getting shuffled out for extended periods, no redundancy. No arguments or disappointment when the Robin in the next Batman or Teen Titans show/movie isn't someone's favourite, because there'd only be one.