Characters Who Outlived Their Point

[manwhohaseverything]

The difference is that Harley is no longer Joker's partner and hasn't been for a decade, all the heinous acts are far in the past, Wally West murdered a whole set of heroes last year. I honestly can't speak for Jason I don't read his book and have no idea what he has done, and unlike some I don't make points about characters I know nothing about.

Nah! It doesn't really matter. Time doesn't mean anything. I can kill a person yesterday or 5 years ago. It would be the same. Wally's was an accident that could happen to anyone,it was manslaughter. Harley is nothing but a mass murderer psychopath, who used to kill for no reason other than "puddin". She is the female version of injustice superman who went nuts cause "lois". They(management) can do what they want. She has no business being anywhere near jl in my eyes. Especially, if the likes of wally and jason are kept out.Dude, all i need to read is wiki to know what's a characters history. Nothing more, nothing less.

[lucius121]

Nah! It doesn't really matter. Time doesn't mean anything. I can kill a person yesterday or 5 years ago. It would be the same. Wally's was an accident that could happen to anyone,it was manslaughter. Harley is nothing but a mass murderer psychopath, who used to kill for no reason other than "puddin". She is the female version of injustice superman who went nuts cause "lois". They(management) can do what they want. She has no business being anywhere near jl in my eyes. Especially, if the likes of wally and jason are kept out.Dude, all i need to read is wiki to know what's a characters history. Nothing more, nothing less.

Since your characterisation of the character is horribly inaccurate I would say reading wiki's led you astray, but I've had this argument with casual comic book fans a lot before. As for Wally perhaps killing the heroes was manslaughter but attempting to put the blame on Harley by inserting objects into dead bodies was intentional and illegal. Time makes a big difference otherwise Hal, Diana and Bruce would have no right to be on the justice league either.

[manwhohaseverything]

Since your characterisation of the character is horribly inaccurate I would say reading wiki's led you astray, but I've had this argument with casual comic book fans a lot before. As for Wally perhaps killing the heroes was manslaughter but attempting to put the blame on Harley by inserting objects into dead bodies was intentional and illegal. Time makes a big difference otherwise Hal, Diana and Bruce would have no right to be on the justice league either.

So? big deal. He messed with crime scene. That isn't a death penalty crime, if we are talking law. Harley quinn should have received that a long time ago. Nah! No mistake,she is the female version of injustice superman. She is just at so called redemption end of the cycle. Injustice man is at the murderous. Well, they aren't.that's why they are being called hypocrites. But at the very least they had saved the world many times. They had better reasons for breakdowns, kills and arcs for redemption. Harley quinns redemption is what? Dating a psycopath and becoming a mass murderer is stupid. Wow! What a revelation.

And wonder woman doesn't really have ano kill code. She killed maxwell lord for protecting superman. Hal was parallaxed and had a redemption arc. Even, then he witnessed his entire city go up.Heck! Even injusticeman had better reason. He killed his child, his wife,his friends, his father figure, the entire life he built in the city. Harley's reasons are pathetic comparatively And her redemption is a joke. Oh! By the way harley was also partner in crime of that incident. So, she(that version) is basically hitler.

[chamber-music]

Batman can't keep his own rogues locked up longer for five minutes and most of them kill innocent civilians all the time.

Jason would probably end up being recruited into the suicide squad or some other shady government program if he got locked up. It is doubtful he would stay in prison.

[Adekis]

Nah! It doesn't really matter. Time doesn't mean anything. I can kill a person yesterday or 5 years ago. It would be the same. Wally's was an accident that could happen to anyone,it was manslaughter. Harley is nothing but a mass murderer psychopath, who used to kill for no reason other than "puddin". She is the female version of injustice superman who went nuts cause "lois". They(management) can do what they want. She has no business being anywhere near jl in my eyes. Especially, if the likes of wally and jason are kept out.Dude, all i need to read is wiki to know what's a characters history. Nothing more, nothing less.

Since your characterisation of the character is horribly inaccurate I would say reading wiki's led you astray, but I've had this argument with casual comic book fans a lot before... Time makes a big difference otherwise Hal, Diana and Bruce would have no right to be on the justice league either.

I'm reminded of a story, possibly untrue, where Denny O'Neill or someone was working on a story with Steve Ditko. In the script, but not in a caption or dialogue, O'Neill (or whoever) called a character an "ex-criminal," and Ditko responded by writing like a two page letter about how there's no such thing as an ex-criminal, once you're a criminal, it's for life.

I think later, Ditko walked back this stance a little bit, as he wrote a "Mr. A" story about a man released from jail who stayed on the straight-and-narrow, even when his crooked former buddies tried to threaten and pressure him to come back to a life of crime. Mr. A was totally cool with the guy, because he had served his time.

Still, at the time, O'Neill and Ditko really clashed over this, and didn't work together much longer after this philosophical clash.

Personally, I think my reading of Harley is that the animated series' line that she's both a dangerous crook and a good person is bunk. She's clearly a type of deranged, and she doesn't care about hurting anyone as long as her interests or the interests of her in-group are furthered. She's absolutely a kind of evil. But, she's definitely still making progress on being her own person, she's far, far less of a psychopath than Joker is, and I'm willing to cheer her on at being her own kind of master criminal, rather than Joker's far crueler kind.

That said, I think there are lines Harley shouldn't be written to cross, because they're inconsistent with her character as broadly portrayed, and any kind of mass murder, or child murder, is definitely part of that line.

[manwhohaseverything]

I'm reminded of a story, possibly untrue, where Denny O'Neill or someone was working on a story with Steve Ditko. In the script, but not in a caption or dialogue, O'Neill (or whoever) called a character an "ex-criminal," and Ditko responded by writing like a two page letter about how there's no such thing as an ex-criminal, once you're a criminal, it's for life.

I think later, Ditko walked back this stance a little bit, as he wrote a "Mr. A" story about a man released from jail who stayed on the straight-and-narrow, even when his crooked former buddies tried to threaten and pressure him to come back to a life of crime. Mr. A was totally cool with the guy, because he had served his time.

Still, at the time, O'Neill and Ditko really clashed over this, and didn't work together much longer after this philosophical clash.

Personally, I think my reading of Harley is that the animated series' line that she's both a dangerous crook and a good person is bunk. She's clearly a type of deranged, and she doesn't care about hurting anyone as long as her interests or the interests of her in-group are furthered. She's absolutely a kind of evil. But, she's definitely still making progress on being her own person, she's far, far less of a psychopath than Joker is, and I'm willing to cheer her on at being her own kind of master criminal, rather than Joker's far crueler kind.

That said, I think there are lines Harley shouldn't be written to cross, because they're inconsistent with her character as broadly portrayed, and any kind of mass murder, or child murder, is definitely part of that line.

Nah! I am not of that mentality.i don't think you are a criminal for life. But, i need more than what harley has given me. Especially, since her entire reason for being that is "the devil made me do it".the devil being joker.i can't sympathise with that. Let alone empathise.

[Adekis]

Nah! I am not of that mentality.i am don't think you are a criminal for life. But, i need more than what harley has given me. Especially, since her entire reason for being that is "the devil made me do it".the devil being joker.i can't sympathise with that. Let alone empathise.

I guess the main thing I like about HQ:TAS is that she's not going for redemption, just for her own kind of immoral criminal success. She takes ownership of her own evil actions. This intersects with the idea of "the devil made me do it," in that she never makes that kind of claim, even though she aggressively rejects the Joker himself, for all his cruelty, toxicity, etc.

I don't think Harley has outgrown her purpose - or, well, I suppose she actually has, but I think she's evolved a very compelling new purpose. The only thing is, I wonder whether it's sustainable.

There are still stories that treat her as Joker's sidekick plain and simple, and it's possible that that might never go away. At the same time, if she's always rebelling against that in the majority of the stories that focus on her as a character, I wonder how long it will take to get old. How many times can she break away from the Joker and strike out on her own before it sticks, and they can't tell that story any more? Every one of those stories seems to be happening for the first time, as it should, to be a decisive victory rather than a depressing cycle. And yet, she can't keep doing that forever, can she? Sooner or later, it's going to get old. What's Stage Two of Harley's Success? Can she truly evolve into a Reigning Super-Villain all on her own, having definitively split from Joker forever?

Well my answer is that I don't know, and I'm curious to find out.

I don't know that all that was tied too directly into your own discussion about Harley, haha! So, sorry about that!

[manwhohaseverything]

I guess the main thing I like about HQ:TAS is that she's not going for redemption, just for her own kind of immoral criminal success. She takes ownership of her own evil actions. This intersects with the idea of "the devil made me do it," in that she never makes that kind of claim, even though she aggressively rejects the Joker himself, for all his cruelty, toxicity, etc.

I don't think Harley has outgrown her purpose - or, well, I suppose she actually has, but I think she's evolved a very compelling new purpose. The only thing is, I wonder whether it's sustainable.

There are still stories that treat her as Joker's sidekick plain and simple, and it's possible that that might never go away. At the same time, if she's always rebelling against that in the majority of the stories that focus on her as a character, I wonder how long it will take to get old. How many times can she break away from the Joker and strike out on her own before it sticks, and they can't tell that story any more? Every one of those stories seems to be happening for the first time, as it should, to be a decisive victory rather than a depressing cycle. And yet, she can't keep doing that forever, can she? Sooner or later, it's going to get old. What's Stage Two of Harley's Success? Can she truly evolve into a Reigning Super-Villain all on her own, having definitively split from Joker forever?

Well my answer is that I don't know, and I'm curious to find out.

I don't know that all that was tied too directly into your own discussion about Harley, haha! So, sorry about that!

It's cool. Great story btw.
Well, she might not want that. The character writers need to take it into consideration.She might be compelling character and good protagonist.But, being hero requires a different moral fibre. my problem is the assertion that harley is a hero.A hero has to have certain moral standards. He/she/other can fall from that standard or rise. When he falls redemption is needed for rising,it is especially needed for the audience. Me being the audience has never been able to feel her rise and reason for fall as compelling.stands to reason i don't or can't view her as any kind of hero because of this. And JL is for heroes. On the other hand jason and wally are heroes,for me. They might have fallen. But, still heroes.The debate was about jason's need for existance. How he became hitman-esque vigilante who provides home for the undesirables like bizarro.

[Rise]

Hal Jordan has outlived his point.

Of all of the DCU heroes to incorporate legacy into the story's fabric, Green Lantern makes more sense than anyone. It's more interesting if the most powerful weapon in the universe is in the hands of some screw-up doofus who needs to step up, rather than a super-competent flying cop.

IMO, Hal works much better in the past — as "the best" one who you'll never live up to — but yet who also turned to the dark side, becoming one of the most fearsome villains ever who dies and returns time and again.

Hal as Parallax should be a major DCU villain, he could be like Magneto or Darth Vader... you can have comics and stories of Young Prime Hal but do it as a period piece... and then have him be Dark Hal in the present.

Like Vader, or Magneto, or Kylo Ren... Dark Hal Parallax sometimes is good, but he follows no orders, and gives no farts. His whole thing is being a maverick. It makes sense that he would eventually become his own authority as Parallax.

Who the heck would want their favourite character to be like Kylo Ren? He is a terrible character and even his actor is trying to distance himself from him.

And Hal is definitely nothing like Vader or Magento. He was turned into a big bad guy just to props up Kyle and his legacy was destroyed before Johns made something meaningful out of the Parallax saga.

If anyone outlived their point, it's Nightwing. He didn't have a single good story as Nightwing for decades and the only good stories his fans would claim are good is him as Batman and Agent 37.

[lucius121]

Redacted for sanity.

[docmidnite]

probably kyle Rayner. he was created to be 'the one and only final Green Lantern'. Since they brought back the corps he's really floundered without his purpose. Ion, white Lantern, anything of the sorts just hasn't been the same.

I agree. Plus he is such a product of the 90's with the Nine Inch Nails Grunge t-shirt and the whole stumbling out of a Beverley Hills 90210 L.A. Grunge club thing.

[manwhohaseverything]

So shoving you hand into a the person you killed to plant evidence which could convict an innocent person is no big deal, but Harley is hitler. Well it's obvious you're basically trolling at this point but I will point out that her redemption would be a joke to someone who has only read a wiki since it was probably three lines or something.

I'm sorry I derailed the thread I don't think I've made a post about the actual topic of discussion.

I don't think any character has outlived their point though I do think some characters have left their original concept behind so far that they are basically a different character entirely.

Immoral act and illegal act are different. There might be overlaps but they are essentially different. Wally being pragmatic regarding dead body is immoral,Not illegal. We were talking law,Not morality. Even that is for bringing back ivy. It wasn't selfish. he would have gained nothing. I don't see harley as "innocent". Only booster. And wally had no intention of putting it on their head permanently. Fine. A frame job can also be added. Nothing compared to harley's nonsense.
Nope!i am serious. I don't see any merit in her redemption. I can't sympathise at all.

[lucius121]

Immoral act and illegal act are different. There might be overlaps but they are essentially different. Wally being pragmatic regarding dead body is immoral,Not illegal. We were talking law,Not morality. Even that is for bringing back ivy. It wasn't selfish. he would have gained nothing. I don't see harley as "innocent". Only booster. And wally had no intention of putting it on their head permanently. Fine. A frame job can also be added. Nothing compared to harley's nonsense.
Nope!i am serious. I don't see any merit in her redemption. I can't sympathise at all.

It’s fine that you don’t see any merit in it, you literally know nothing about it. I actually removed the quoted post because I think we’ve derailed the discussion enough. So I won’t respond to any more comments on this, you’re obviously quite set in your view and not willing to actually read about the characters so I will leave to your conviction based on you’re wiki knowledge.

[Adekis]

Who the heck would want their favourite character to be like Kylo Ren? He is a terrible character and even his actor is trying to distance himself from him.

Kylo Ren is the equivalent of having a neo-Nazi school shooter be your villain. Which makes him kind of a great character, actually. Sure, he's not likable, and he's clearly ridiculously toxic, but he's well acted and written decently enough, er, for two movies at least. I can't blame Adam Driver for wanting not to be associated with Kylo Ren though - the character is deliberately the Worst Person, and then Disney did him dirty. Still, great actor.

Now for me, I love Parallax, but I don't think he's anything like Kylo Ren or Darth Vader. My first exposure to him was in Final Night, which makes very clear that Parallax is exactly the same person now as Green Lantern was, just having gained some new perspective on how he thinks things should work. I find him immensely compelling - far more compelling, in fact, than the obnoxious retcon that Jordan was just possessed by a monster the whole time. When I first heard that, I felt very betrayed. I understand there was some poor writing for the character, but that core I first experienced in Final Night is just so solid to me! I'll always kind of love Hal "Parallax" Jordan.


To weigh back in on the Harley debate, I think she can have moral standards without being a hero, and I think that place is where I want her. I don't want her killing kids, or nuking cities, or destroying populated buildings - but she can still be a murderer, and I don't think she would even have any remorse about being a murderer.

In contrast, I loved "Good Luthor" while he was around, and I think Luthor should have something approaching moral standards, even if they clear some pretty low bars, like "no bystanders should die during my getaways" as he once expressed during the '70s. I've never loved stories where Lex does something truly heinous like trying to kill everyone in the city, blow up the world, or cure someone of a debilitating disease only to infect them again out of spite. Or even just firing someone for no good reason, honestly. I don't like Luthor to be just a petty dick. Just seems inconsistent with the stories that most draw me to him.

I mean, none of these people are real, so it's not like they've got a permanent record that any particular story will go on and thus taint the character forever. In Superman II when Clark mind-wipes Lois, without her permission, when the only thing at stake was that she was sad, he commits an unforgivable action, in my mind. But it's not like Superman is tarnished because of it, it's just a Superman story where I think he's mischaracterized. The broader sense of the characters is more important than the specifics. Similarly, I don't feel like Harley is unforgivable because she nuked a city in one story, or killed a bunch of kids in another, I just write off that story, because it's inconsistent with the broader way she's characterized.

[Godlike13]

If anyone outlived their point, it's Nightwing. He didn't have a single good story as Nightwing for decades and the only good stories his fans would claim are good is him as Batman and Agent 37.

Your not wrong. Batman and Agent 37 shows they can do something good when they try, but as soon as they make him Nightwing they default back to the same old formulas. Seeley’s run was solid but even he only seemed half into it, and now Nightwing is just fodder for boring creators. The problem only compounds with every Nightwing-lite too.