Characters Who Outlived Their Point

[Adekis]

I think there's a serious "Robin" problem.

In the beginning, Dick was Robin and Robin was Dick. There was no difference between them. Dick was the Boy Wonder. As Denny O'Neill first sent Robin off to college and then he relocated to a permanent home in the Titans, it became kind of clear that Dick Grayson the character and the icon, Robin the Boy Wonder, weren't entirely the same any more. When Gerry Conway wanted a more traditional Robin and Marv Wolfman wanted to keep the Dick Grayson character he'd sunk so much character development into, Jason Todd was an obvious compromise - there's just another Dick Grayson running around, ten years younger! Two Robins, one for Titans, one for Batman. Seems fair.

After the Crisis, giving Jay a new origin story was a natural idea, but then you run into the whole "Cute Robin" vs "Thug Robin" conflict where different writers wrote Jay differently, and that leads to Jim Starlin killing Jason off. But fundamentally, Jay was always a version of Dick, a variation on the same theme. Two Robins, one older, one younger. Nightwing was always just kind of another name for Robin.

But then later writers wanted Robin back. So they do it again, they make a new Robin, fundamentally not that different from "Classic" Dick, but a little more grounded and a little more of a computer whiz.

But then you get Tim trying to quit and Steph taking over, dying and Tim coming back, but getting all grimdark and master-planner in Titans, and then you get Damian, being the first Robin not to be at least kind of like Dick was. And then you get Signal, and Bluejay, and you know what?

There only ever really needed to be a maximum of two Robins.

[Nite-Wing]

Dick Grayson has lost his relevance to the point that even Jason Todd as the broken and edgy Robin has become a better antithesis to Bruce. Dick used to be the "social" or imagined version of what a less gritty take on Bruce would be. He'd get to make all the relationships and be friends with everyone in the hero community while Bruce would be locked up in the cave by himself. Unfortunately for Dick Bruce is now also a "social" character and can do all of his interactions with Superman to Zatanna without a go between. Dick has lost his one unique feature and his character has sort of hit the glass ceiling.
Now he's a slave to the status quo of writers
He gets killed or shot in the head or can have his identity exposed and its almost always to further Bruce's story not his own.



Jason as a character highlighting Bruce's failures as well as being the eternal counterpoint to why you should not be teaching these skills to children just works so much better than Dick being "Batman lite"

[phantom1592]

Hal Jordan has outlived his point.

Of all of the DCU heroes to incorporate legacy into the story's fabric, Green Lantern makes more sense than anyone. It's more interesting if the most powerful weapon in the universe is in the hands of some screw-up doofus who needs to step up, rather than a super-competent flying cop.

IMO, Hal works much better in the past — as "the best" one who you'll never live up to — but yet who also turned to the dark side, becoming one of the most fearsome villains ever who dies and returns time and again.

Hal as Parallax should be a major DCU villain, he could be like Magneto or Darth Vader... you can have comics and stories of Young Prime Hal but do it as a period piece... and then have him be Dark Hal in the present.

Like Vader, or Magneto, or Kylo Ren... Dark Hal Parallax sometimes is good, but he follows no orders, and gives no farts. His whole thing is being a maverick. It makes sense that he would eventually become his own authority as Parallax.

Biggest problem there, is that is EXACTLY what Sinestro is. We've already had 'The greatest Green Lantern of them all that betrayed the corps and took all the power in his own hands to do whatever he wants...' and we've seen decades of the Hal fighting directly against that as 'evil'. Making Hal, Sinestro 2.0 doesn't complete his story... it undermines it.

[Adekis]

I will say, I'm against the idea of highlighting "why you should not be teaching these skills to children." Like a lot of kid's adventure fiction, super-heroes don't really work if you hold them up to too much real-life logic, and they become scary or ridiculous pretty quick. So I think, you know, don't do that. Let Batman's best friend be a teen acrobat or whatever, it works as long as you don't take Batman more seriously than the melodramatic adventure fiction character he always has been. You can still work literary themes in there or whatever you need, but it's important, I think, not to risk harpooning the whole concept by treating it so seriously.

[Dred]

Biggest problem there, is that is EXACTLY what Sinestro is. We've already had 'The greatest Green Lantern of them all that betrayed the corps and took all the power in his own hands to do whatever he wants...' and we've seen decades of the Hal fighting directly against that as 'evil'. Making Hal, Sinestro 2.0 doesn't complete his story... it undermines it.

Looking into the abyss and the abyss looking back is one of the most fundamental story telling mechanics.

[Johnny]

Looking into the abyss and the abyss looking back is one of the most fundamental story telling mechanics.

Depends on the story and character. Hal Jordan is not Darth Vader and Parallax served no other purpose than to pave the way for Kyle. There's no reason to destroy Hal's character and legacy just to prop someone else.

[phantom1592]

Looking into the abyss and the abyss looking back is one of the most fundamental story telling mechanics.

Sounds like another term for cliche.

Looking into the abyss and not blinking is what ALLLLLLL the superheroes have been doing for the better part of a century. Singling out the ONE who is supposed to have the strongest will to crack is poor storytelling

If anyone has stared too long into the abyss it's Batman.

[SiegePerilous02]

Looking into the abyss and the abyss looking back is one of the most fundamental story telling mechanics.

And it was only done to Hal to get rid of him in exchange for Kyle.

Hal is a Han/Luke fusion, he's not Anakin/Darth Vader. Sinestro's already got that covered.

[Frontier]

Sounds like another term for cliche.

Looking into the abyss and not blinking is what ALLLLLLL the superheroes have been doing for the better part of a century. Singling out the ONE who is supposed to have the strongest will to crack is poor storytelling

If anyone has stared too long into the abyss it's Batman.

[Jim Kelly]

Cyborg seems like an idea whose time came and went. Even when Victor Stone was first introduced, there was already a popular Cyborg named Steve Austin, THE SIX MILLION DOLLAR MAN, based on a novel called CYBORG--plus THE BIONIC WOMAN. I guess they've tried to get ahead of the cybernetics story by now having Stone influenced by Apokolips.

I think the Martian Manhunter long ago became an unlikely character--which is probably why Denny O'Neil wrote him out of the JLA in 1969--because already by then everyone knew that there were no green-skinned humanoids living on the surface of Mars. But I guess, when DC brought him back, they just decided to throw all reason out the window.

I disagree about Hal Jordan. The idea that he's the best of the Green Lanterns is something imposed on the character by later writers. The interesting contrast between Barry Allen and Hal Jordan as written by John Broome is that both characters start in the same place, but one guy's life goes along quite smoothly with him ending up marrying the smart, independent woman he loves. The other guy--Jordan--runs into all kinds of problems, he doesn't get the woman, he quits his job, he lives a chaotic existence on the road. He's pretty good at being a Green Lantern, but he can't get his act together otherwise. And even being a Green Lantern doesn't go so good for him--butting heads with the Guardians. So by the time Denny O'Neil comes on as writer, Hal is demoted as a Green Lantern. Of the 1960s Justice Leaguers, he's the one who is the most imperfect (almost a Marvel character).

Hawk and Dove were specific to the late 1960s--I don't think the political point that Ditko was making back then is relevant in the present. Scalphunter didn't seem so offensive in 1977, but the concept of a white guy dressing up as a Native American and having the name "Scalphunter" seems a bit vulgar now. Flipper Dipper--Jack Kirby's new addition to the Newsboy Legion in 1971--never made no sense (why does he wear a scuba outift on dry land?).

The Rocket Reds, Red Star, Red Son, KGBeast etc. don't make much sense in 2020 when the Soviet Union fell apart thirty years ago

[Otto Gruenwald]

Perpetua.
Definitely Perpetua.
She's dull as dishwater, demystifies The Hand, turns the Source into a council of dicks willing to nuke any multiverse that doesn't pass their stupid JUSTICE OR DOOM TEST, and her plan is just to turn the multiverse into an army of the Engineers from Prometheus. BORING.

It doesn't help that you have Mu and Mr. Thunderbolt doing multiverse stuff off in The Green Lantern and Dial H while being far more interesting and cool than Perpetua. If her point was to be THE BIGGEST VILLAIN TO EVER VILLAIN she certainly outlived it.

[achilles]

Perpetua.
Definitely Perpetua.
She's dull as dishwater, demystifies The Hand, turns the Source into a council of dicks willing to nuke any multiverse that doesn't pass their stupid JUSTICE OR DOOM TEST, and her plan is just to turn the multiverse into an army of the Engineers from Prometheus. BORING.

It doesn't help that you have Mu and Mr. Thunderbolt doing multiverse stuff off in The Green Lantern and Dial H while being far more interesting and cool than Perpetua. If her point was to be THE BIGGEST VILLAIN TO EVER VILLAIN she certainly outlived it.

Well, to be a bit more accurate, Perpetua...and even for comics that's a pretty awful name...never had a point. That whole trend to introduce previously unknown even bigger villains than the ultimate one before is such a horrible cliche that even DC itself is busy mocking it while indulging in it. Having Superman actually give a speech to that effect it about as on the nose as you can get, but why would DC even do that? Acknowledge that they know very well that what they're doing is just the worst, and they don't care?

[godisawesome]

I don’t think character’s have outlived their purpose as much as some are not being used for a purpose right now.

Like, if I’m looking at the Robins... all of them are awesome, and there’s no good excuse to get rid of them, but they could use a more defined relationship to each other and Batman.

Nightwing, to me, really should be treated as Batman’s clear equal and should be doing the things Dick was doing as Batman - he should be on the Justice League occasionally, and acting as Damian’s primary tutor.

Jason should still remain the 90’s action dude he is, but should probably be acknowledged as now belonging to his own school apart from the Batfamily, and not treated as closely affiliated with them, but rather as an alternative - the reverse of Dick who may occasionally either advise someone to follow his more bloody path, or give them a reality check if they’re doing to for the wrong reasons in his eyes. He should be a guy who only really joins the family in desperate straights, and he should have to deal with more consequences for being a killer, but not to the point of complete treatment as a villain.

Tim should be treated as the new graduated sidekick, the niche Nightwing usually occupies when he’s held back, but should be emphasized as the more strategic guy trying to compromise criminal systems - basically the stuff from Red Robin’s volume of stories, but more focused now. I’d have him starting to show a bit of conflict, where he’s maybe being torn between following Dick exactly, but Jason’s more permanent methods are maybe tugging at him, but from a coldly logical place. He’d still be a bit of the Oeter Oarker style weed, but a Oeter Parker dweeb trained by Batman, so a very different personality in some way.

Damian shouldn’t”t resemble a conventional Robin at all. He’s exactly the kind of weird munchkin to have a small zoo of both mundane and fantastic anaimals, and still genuinely struggle to fit in in regular social situations...

Stuff like that.

No character outlives their purpose.

They just get stuck with bad writers, or as victims of Dan Didio.

[Flash Gordon]

I think there's a serious "Robin" problem.

In the beginning, Dick was Robin and Robin was Dick. There was no difference between them. Dick was the Boy Wonder. As Denny O'Neill first sent Robin off to college and then he relocated to a permanent home in the Titans, it became kind of clear that Dick Grayson the character and the icon, Robin the Boy Wonder, weren't entirely the same any more. When Gerry Conway wanted a more traditional Robin and Marv Wolfman wanted to keep the Dick Grayson character he'd sunk so much character development into, Jason Todd was an obvious compromise - there's just another Dick Grayson running around, ten years younger! Two Robins, one for Titans, one for Batman. Seems fair.

After the Crisis, giving Jay a new origin story was a natural idea, but then you run into the whole "Cute Robin" vs "Thug Robin" conflict where different writers wrote Jay differently, and that leads to Jim Starlin killing Jason off. But fundamentally, Jay was always a version of Dick, a variation on the same theme. Two Robins, one older, one younger. Nightwing was always just kind of another name for Robin.

But then later writers wanted Robin back. So they do it again, they make a new Robin, fundamentally not that different from "Classic" Dick, but a little more grounded and a little more of a computer whiz.

But then you get Tim trying to quit and Steph taking over, dying and Tim coming back, but getting all grimdark and master-planner in Titans, and then you get Damian, being the first Robin not to be at least kind of like Dick was. And then you get Signal, and Bluejay, and you know what?

There only ever really needed to be a maximum of two Robins.

100% agreed.

There only needs to be 2 Robins. Otherwise the whole thing gets weird. Dick Grayson, who was Robin for a long time. Started young and matured in the role, and then maybe Batman's own son Damien. Or, Dick Grsyson and whoever else you want to choose. Tim and Jason can easily be amalgamated into Dick and Damien or whoever.

[Flash Gordon]

The Anti-Monitor, Doomsday (though Morrison's SuperDoom is a great corpo-fascist update on the concept), Martian Manhunter