Article: D&D Moral Alignments Of The Batman Family and Villains

[Aahz]

I have seen that cbr did a while back a lists of the D&D Moral Alignments Of The Batman Family and D&D Moral Alignments Of The Dark Knight's Villains

They came up with the following.

Jason Todd: Neutral
Cassandra Cain: Chaotic Good
Stephanie Brown: Lawful Good
Jim Gordon: Lawful Good
Kate Kane: Chaotic Good
Barbara Gordon: Lawful Good
Tim Drake: Lawful Good
Dick Grayson: Lawful Good
Damian Wayne: Lawful Neutral
Batman: Neutral Good

Mr. Freeze: Lawful Evil
Penguin: Neutral Evil
Catwoman: Neutral
Two-Face: Lawful Evil
Harley Quinn: Chaotic Neutral
Poison Ivy: Lawful Evil
Scarecrow: Chaotic Evil
Ra's Al Ghul: Neutral/Lawful Evil
Bane: Lawful/Chaotic Evil
Joker: Chaotic Evil

The Lists seems imo a little of when it comes to the Batfamily.

I'm fine with Dick, Tim, Damian and Jim Gordon. I would put Bruce probably also in Lawful but I think neutral also works.

But When it comes to the rest:

Jason Todd is (especially since Flashpoint) Chaotic and probably Good (but I can see an argument for Neutral).

Cassandra Cain is imo Lawful Good, can't really see why she should be Chaotic.

Stephanie Brown on the other hand is imo Chaotic and not Lawful.

Kate Kane I'm not sure but I would tend towards Lawful Good (but I think the writing might have also been inconsistent when it comes to this).

Barbara Gordon I'm also not sure id think Lawful Good fit most of her incarnations (especially as Batgirl) but a lot of the Stuff she did as Oracle was more on the chaotic side.

Selina is also imo the text book case for Chaotic Neutral and not True Neutral.

[Jackalope89]

Yeah, Jason is more chaotic good. I'll say that.

[Dr. Victor Fries]

I have seen that cbr did a while back a lists of the D&D Moral Alignments Of The Batman Family and D&D Moral Alignments Of The Dark Knight's Villains

They came up with the following.

Jason Todd: Neutral
Cassandra Cain: Chaotic Good
Stephanie Brown: Lawful Good
Jim Gordon: Lawful Good
Kate Kane: Chaotic Good
Barbara Gordon: Lawful Good
Tim Drake: Lawful Good
Dick Grayson: Lawful Good
Damian Wayne: Lawful Neutral
Batman: Neutral Good

Mr. Freeze: Lawful Evil
Penguin: Neutral Evil
Catwoman: Neutral
Two-Face: Lawful Evil
Harley Quinn: Chaotic Neutral
Poison Ivy: Lawful Evil
Scarecrow: Chaotic Evil
Ra's Al Ghul: Neutral/Lawful Evil
Bane: Lawful/Chaotic Evil
Joker: Chaotic Evil

The Lists seems imo a little of when it comes to the Batfamily.

I'm fine with Dick, Tim, Damian and Jim Gordon. I would put Bruce probably also in Lawful but I think neutral also works.

But When it comes to the rest:

Jason Todd is (especially since Flashpoint) Chaotic and probably Good (but I can see an argument for Neutral).

Cassandra Cain is imo Lawful Good, can't really see why she should be Chaotic.

Stephanie Brown on the other hand is imo Chaotic and not Lawful.

Kate Kane I'm not sure but I would tend towards Lawful Good (but I think the writing might have also been inconsistent when it comes to this).

Barbara Gordon I'm also not sure id think Lawful Good fit most of her incarnations (especially as Batgirl) but a lot of the Stuff she did as Oracle was more on the chaotic side.

Selina is also imo the text book case for Chaotic Neutral and not True Neutral.

They do have a DC RPG (which includes a Gotham City Sourcebook) that is like D&D

[Ascended]

They do have a DC RPG (which includes a Gotham City Sourcebook) that is like D&D

Are you talking about Mutants & Masterminds? That was a damn quality D20 product. I honestly think the system is better than WotC's systems. I never bought the DC sourcebook for it though, I had already made my own stats for....pretty much everyone, by the time I heard about that thing.

Anyway, I figure it goes something like this:

Batman: Lawful Good. Dude has too many rules he follows (even if they're not society's laws) to not be Lawful. And honestly, I'd entertain an argument for Bruce, at his worst, being Lawful Neutral. When he's willing to use and abuse his family and friends for the mission, and then gets mad that they're not okay with that, he's strayed beyond "Good" in my opinion.

Nightwing: Neutral Good. Dick will do the right thing, even if that means compromising. He'll be a spy, he'll lie to people he loves, in the service of the greater good.

Damian: Chaotic Good. He wants to do the right thing, but often gets carried away and loses sight of his priorities.

Barbara Gordon: Probably Neutral Good. She'll do the right thing, but has no problem hacking into your personal information just on the hunch that you're involved in something dirty.

Tim Drake: Lawful Good, I think. Of all Bruce's sidekicks and legacies, Tim's the closest to Bruce's own sense of duty I think.

Kate Kane: Also Lawful Good, but her "Lawful" is more "military discipline" than it is "staying true to your personal values" like it is with the other Bats.

Jason: I don't know. Chaotic Good these days? I'd prefer him as Chaotic Neutral, or even Evil, myself. Don't care for Jason as the "bad boy" in the Robin boy band. He was better as DC's Punisher.

[Zaresh]

I have seen that cbr did a while back a lists of the D&D Moral Alignments Of The Batman Family and D&D Moral Alignments Of The Dark Knight's Villains

They came up with the following.

Jason Todd: Neutral
Cassandra Cain: Chaotic Good
Stephanie Brown: Lawful Good
Jim Gordon: Lawful Good
Kate Kane: Chaotic Good
Barbara Gordon: Lawful Good
Tim Drake: Lawful Good
Dick Grayson: Lawful Good
Damian Wayne: Lawful Neutral
Batman: Neutral Good

Mr. Freeze: Lawful Evil
Penguin: Neutral Evil
Catwoman: Neutral
Two-Face: Lawful Evil
Harley Quinn: Chaotic Neutral
Poison Ivy: Lawful Evil
Scarecrow: Chaotic Evil
Ra's Al Ghul: Neutral/Lawful Evil
Bane: Lawful/Chaotic Evil
Joker: Chaotic Evil

The Lists seems imo a little of when it comes to the Batfamily.

I'm fine with Dick, Tim, Damian and Jim Gordon. I would put Bruce probably also in Lawful but I think neutral also works.

But When it comes to the rest:

Jason Todd is (especially since Flashpoint) Chaotic and probably Good (but I can see an argument for Neutral).

Cassandra Cain is imo Lawful Good, can't really see why she should be Chaotic.

Stephanie Brown on the other hand is imo Chaotic and not Lawful.

Kate Kane I'm not sure but I would tend towards Lawful Good (but I think the writing might have also been inconsistent when it comes to this).

Barbara Gordon I'm also not sure id think Lawful Good fit most of her incarnations (especially as Batgirl) but a lot of the Stuff she did as Oracle was more on the chaotic side.

Selina is also imo the text book case for Chaotic Neutral and not True Neutral.

Jason is chaotic good leaning into chaotic neutral from time to time. He's a vigilante, but a heroic one. My characters who usually are chaotic good are very much like Jason, except when he holds his grudges and goes into his breakdowns, which is where he falls into Chaotic Neutral or even True Neutral, because he may or may not use the law or the code, the rules of the setting, in his own advantage.
Cassandra is Neutral Good, imho.
Stephanie Brown is Neutral Good, imho.
Jim Gordon is Lawful Good, yes, but I think he can be lax enough to be Neutral Good from time to time.
Kate Kane is Chaotic Good. Edit: doe she follow that personal code always? She seems a bit like "depending on the situation and the person she's dealing with", for me; but I'm not following her well enough.
Barbara Gordon is Lawful Good, much like Dick and Bruce.
Tim Drake is Neutral Good, imho.
Dick Grayson is Lawful Good
Damian Wayne is Lawful Neutral alright. Edit: well, nowadays I guess he doesn't care about following Bruce rules, morals and code, so I guess he's Neutral or even Chaotic Good now.
Bruce is Lawful Good. The code. It's all about his darn code and working with the law. He can lean into Neutral Good from time to time. Edit again: yeah, he can be Lawful Neutral too. I agree.

Edit: about the villains. Most, I can agree.

Mr. Freeze: Chaotic Neutral
Penguin: Neutral Evil
Catwoman: True Neutral. Sometimes, Chaotic Good.
Two-Face: Lawful Evil
Harley Quinn: Chaotic Neutral.
Poison Ivy: Lawful Evil (if Nature is law, as much as Batman's code is, this is right and fits her)
Scarecrow: Neutral Evil
Ra's Al Ghul: Neutral Evil. He follows his code, yeah; but he also changes it when it fits him.
Bane: Chaotic Evil.
Joker: Chaotic Evil, totally.

Edit: as far as I understand the concepts of Lawful/Chaotic aligement in D&D, Lawful means follow a set of rules, laws or a code, to some certain degree, without changing those depending on if it's advantageous or not. While Chaotic tends to mean that the character works as he sees more fitting depending on the situation, no matter the rules or laws or codes. Also, lawful characters tend to be more "players for the team", while chaotic characters tend to be more individualistic. It's not an absolute, but it's how I've seen all these traits being played. I mean, I usually play chaotic or neutral, but I also can work for the team perfectly, if I like the members of the team, that's it (they have to be absolutely the worst for me to not help them). Edit again: also, if I were to look just for myself, then I would be Evil; if I were to only look and care for the other's well being, I would be Good.

[Dr. Victor Fries]

Are you talking about Mutants & Masterminds? That was a damn quality D20 product. I honestly think the system is better than WotC's systems. I never bought the DC sourcebook for it though, I had already made my own stats for....pretty much everyone, by the time I heard about that thing.

Anyway, I figure it goes something like this:

Batman: Lawful Good. Dude has too many rules he follows (even if they're not society's laws) to not be Lawful. And honestly, I'd entertain an argument for Bruce, at his worst, being Lawful Neutral. When he's willing to use and abuse his family and friends for the mission, and then gets mad that they're not okay with that, he's strayed beyond "Good" in my opinion.

Nightwing: Neutral Good. Dick will do the right thing, even if that means compromising. He'll be a spy, he'll lie to people he loves, in the service of the greater good.

Damian: Chaotic Good. He wants to do the right thing, but often gets carried away and loses sight of his priorities.

Barbara Gordon: Probably Neutral Good. She'll do the right thing, but has no problem hacking into your personal information just on the hunch that you're involved in something dirty.

Tim Drake: Lawful Good, I think. Of all Bruce's sidekicks and legacies, Tim's the closest to Bruce's own sense of duty I think.

Kate Kane: Also Lawful Good, but her "Lawful" is more "military discipline" than it is "staying true to your personal values" like it is with the other Bats.

Jason: I don't know. Chaotic Good these days? I'd prefer him as Chaotic Neutral, or even Evil, myself. Don't care for Jason as the "bad boy" in the Robin boy band. He was better as DC's Punisher.

https://www.amazon.com/Gotham-City-S...1&sr=8-2-fkmr0

[FBarnhill]

Ivy, Quinn, and Kyle aren’t even villains anymore. Grouping them with the villains is disingenuous.

[Aahz]

Nightwing: Neutral Good. Dick will do the right thing, even if that means compromising. He'll be a spy, he'll lie to people he loves, in the service of the greater good.

For me the Spy thing felt out of character. Usually he is imo the one who is the least likely to break the rules.

Damian: Chaotic Good. He wants to do the right thing, but often gets carried away and loses sight of his priorities.

But that is imo more a neutral thing than a chaotic.

[Ascended]

https://www.amazon.com/Gotham-City-S...1&sr=8-2-fkmr0

Ah, different publisher. Not the same system then. The one I saw was, if I remember right, part of the launch for Mutants & Masterminds third edition. Their second edition is (I think) the one I was familiar with and it was a thing of beauty, easily the most flexible and creative D20 based system I've seen.

But that is imo more a neutral thing than a chaotic.

When he's keeping villains in a secret prison or trying to beat someone to death (admittedly it's been a minute since that happened) that's stepping beyond Good, in my opinion.

[Restingvoice]

Commissioner Gordon is Lawful Good. Always by the book.
Batman and most of the family if not all are Neutral Good. Being a vigilante is unlawful by default and most follow a personal code (Neutral) especially Batman.
Joker is Chaotic Evil
Catwoman and Harley are Chaotic Neutral. Most of the time they're looking out for themselves and dislike being tied down by rules.
Ivy is True Neutral. Her main concern is the natural world, not human rules, codes or laws.
Two-Face is Lawful Neutral, bound only by his coin that can go either side.

[OWL45]

For me the Spy thing felt out of character. Usually he is imo the one who is the least likely to break the rules.

But that is imo more a neutral thing than a chaotic.

Dick has worked with questionable characters before. He partnered with Raptor and skirted the line regarding the law. He also went undercover and partnered with Deathstroke. I can see the argument for Neutral Good.

[Tzigone]

Dick has worked with questionable characters before. He partnered with Raptor and skirted the line regarding the law. He also went undercover and partnered with Deathstroke. I can see the argument for Neutral Good.

I have a problem with the teamup with Deathstroke, but most of the heroes are willing to team up with villains these days (which I hate), so nothing exceptional there. And they actually almost all break the law, but I don't know how that really translates in D&D (lawful/chaotic) terms.

[Bat-Meal]

I think their moral alignments change depending on who's writing the story, and whether they are the star, or in supporting roles with the aim of making another character look cool.

That's why the Bat-family can swap from being competent and cool in their own books, to near-helpless damsels in a Batman book, to total jerks when guest-appearing in each other's books (Batman has a tendency to become a jerk when guest-appearing too).

As far as morals go, usually who is the most in the "right" is the star of the story.

The Bat-family are all good, but as for 'lawful', neutral or chaotic depends on who is writing the character.