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  1. #451
    Extraordinary Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    So, all those years where there were deliberate decisions to shut out all other voices than traditional straight-white folks must've resulted in all movies being bad and having terrible stories too, right?

    In other words, as I said before - there's always been an agenda ... it's called reinforcing traditional values and reinforcing white exceptionalism. You really think that hasn't been a "political agenda" just because it reinforces the status quo?
    Last edited by j9ac9k; 02-18-2020 at 11:12 PM.

  2. #452
    Incredible Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j9ac9k View Post
    So, all those years where there were deliberate decisions to shut out all other voices than traditional straight-white folks must've resulted in all movies being bad and having terrible stories too, right?

    In other words, as I said before - there's always been an agenda ... it's called reinforcing traditional values and reinforcing white exceptionalism. You really think that hasn't been a "political agenda" just because it reinforces the status quo?
    Terrible movies happen all the way, but trying too hard to push a propaganda has a high chance to cause that.

    It doesn't matter you are straight white or whatever group. It's not limited to any specific groups, too. What's the difference between "must be white, must push straight white value" and "must be female/LGBT/whatever, must push their value"?

  3. #453
    Extraordinary Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
    Terrible movies happen all the way, but trying too hard to push a propaganda has a high chance to cause that.

    It doesn't matter you are straight white or whatever group. It's not limited to any specific groups, too. What's the difference between "must be white, must push straight white value" and "must be female/LGBT/whatever, must push their value"?
    ^^That's the point that I'm trying to make. But you can't prove that pushing an agenda leads to a "high chance" of a film being bad. I find that argument to be flawed for all the reasons I've been trying to convey.

  4. #454
    Ceiling Belkar stabs you GozertheGozarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
    Black Panther didn't demonize either side or making either side with X view purely bad.

    Wonder Woman didn't either, it showed Ares had his reason despite going too extreme. There are bad ppl, both men and women as well.

    The worst of them, Captain Marvel also actually tried to avoid politics, the villains didn't have anything to do with sexism and there are evil women in the movie. Yet it's a bad movie, only got high gross due to MCU reason.

    It didn't force the way, trying to teach ppl from above but let the audience see and think of it. It also gave both sides reason and characterization.

    A movie can have some bias, but trying to force it too hard, even go with it on how to pick the film crew would easily affect the quality in a bad way.
    You keep saying Captain Marvel is a bad movie, but haven't said why. So I'm asking.
    "I rhyme with tyre
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    It's the best solution

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    "And that's the essential problem with 'Planetary' right there. When Elijah Snow says, 'The world is a strange place'... he gets Dracula, Doc Savage and Godzilla... When we say it, we get The Captain Fire-Cock Rock 'n' Roll Spectacular."
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  5. #455
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GozertheGozarian View Post
    You keep saying Captain Marvel is a bad movie, but haven't said why. So I'm asking.
    Slowpokeking is just low-grade trolling. I haven't found they've said anything interesting about the Birds of Prey movie so far in any of the threads about the movie. Or indeed about any other movie.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  6. #456
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Slowpokeking is just low-grade trolling. I haven't found they've said anything interesting about the Birds of Prey movie so far in any of the threads about the movie. Or indeed about any other movie.
    That's the problem, the discussion has shifted away from the actual quality of the movie to "feminism".

    It's like the movie's quality or lack thereof is being ignored entirely because it was made by a woman and features female characters.
    "Obviously not all conservatives are racists/bigots but all racists/bigots claim to be conservative"- Unknown

  7. #457
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    That's the problem, the discussion has shifted away from the actual quality of the movie to "feminism".

    It's like the movie's quality or lack thereof is being ignored entirely because it was made by a woman and features female characters.
    This year is going to blow their mind since there are 4 super-hero films directed by women this year, BOP was the first. It's off to a great start. I need a sequel badly. Give Cathy Yan all the money in the world, I need more movies from her ASAP.

  8. #458
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    I haven't seen BOP, but I've heard fans complain about it being the Harley show, the absence of Barbara Gordon, the changes to Black Canary, and the Cassandra Cain-in-name-only. It could still be a good movie despite that, but I think those are legitimate complaints for people who are fans of those characters or the BOP comics. From the sound of it people think it shouldn't be called Birds of Prey in the first place. This is specifically a problem for comics fans. The gp who never heard of Birds of Prey before couldn't care less about this sort of thing and enjoy the movie for what it is.
    Last edited by sunofdarkchild; 02-19-2020 at 04:31 AM.

  9. #459
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    I haven't seen BOP, but I've heard fans complain about it being the Harley show, the absence of Barbara Gordon, the changes to Black Canary, and the Cassandra Cain-in-name-only. It could still be a good movie despite that, but I think those are legitimate complaints for people who are fans of those characters or the BOP comics. From the sound of it people think it shouldn't be called Birds of Prey in the first place. This is specifically a problem for comics fans. The gp who never heard of Birds of Prey before couldn't care less about this sort of thing and enjoy the movie for what it is.
    That's been discussed extensively in this thread. Some of this is a problem in the movie, some of it is a problem with the marketing of the movie, and some of it turned not to be a problem at all.

    Harley Quinn movie: Yes, it is much more of a Harley movie than it is a Birds of Prey movie. Calling it Harley Quinn and the Birds of Prey would have avoided so much early drama. Calling it Harley Quinn: #MeToo would have caused the right drama for the marketing of the movie. You do not back down to fascists. Ever. That title would have hurled it right into their teeth.

    Absence of Babs: Much discussed before. The actual movie was more than fine, and left a nice open hook for her to be included in any future movies featuring the Birds, either as Oracle or Batgirl.

    Changes to Black Canary: The only change to Black Canary was skin deep. The attitude and the personality and the powers were spot-on. I could draw direct lines between Dixon's Black Canary in the Oracle/Black Canary Birds of Prey pilot issue and the Black Canary in the movie. We got a perfectly decent Black Canary origin story, given the constraints of the film.

    Cassandra Cain: True. I just pretend it's a different Cassandra Cain for now, though I do think we should do well to listen to the creative team for the movie about the tropes that comics Cassandra was built on, and that they wanted to avoid.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  10. #460
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    Quote Originally Posted by GozertheGozarian View Post
    You keep saying Captain Marvel is a bad movie, but haven't said why. So I'm asking.
    Don't hold your breath. It is just something he writes automatically now I think. Same as "only got high gross due to MCU reason". That People liked the movie must be something he can not get a grip on.

  11. #461
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    I haven't seen BOP, but I've heard fans complain about it being the Harley show, the absence of Barbara Gordon, the changes to Black Canary, and the Cassandra Cain-in-name-only. It could still be a good movie despite that, but I think those are legitimate complaints for people who are fans of those characters or the BOP comics. From the sound of it people think it shouldn't be called Birds of Prey in the first place. This is specifically a problem for comics fans. The gp who never heard of Birds of Prey before couldn't care less about this sort of thing and enjoy the movie for what it is.
    All the characters are done justice, and are enjoyable to watch. Including Black Mask, who I'm used to seeing as not! Red Skull, thankfully they made him memorable. The Black canary wasn't what I'm used to seeing, yet she seems to be reflecting BOP comics I haven't read and I liked her anyway. It may be Harley's show but it's a wonderful ride. The biggest misstep is Cass and that's nothing when all they needed was call her anything else. The actress and character were a joy to watch interacting with all the crazy people in the movie. Huntress was adorable and completely faithful. MEW knocked it out of the park.

    I say this as a die hard Gail Simone Birds of Prey fan.

  12. #462
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    True. I just pretend it's a different Cassandra Cain for now, though I do think we should do well to listen to the creative team for the movie about the tropes that comics Cassandra was built on, and that they wanted to avoid.
    I don't recall the creative team saying anything about wanting to avoid any negative tropes associated with Cass but either way Cass fans have pointed out that the character in the comics (barring the really stupid phase when she was a villain) is nowhere near as stereotypical as people accuse her of being.

    https://hellyeahteensuperheroes.tumb...anolbot2#notes

    https://hellyeahteensuperheroes.tumb...s-better#notes

    https://hellyeahteensuperheroes.tumb...15122603#notes

    There are characters of color from the comics who absolutely did need a re-examining for modern audiences. Cassandra Cain is not one of them.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 02-19-2020 at 08:04 AM.

  13. #463
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frobisher View Post
    Feminism is over because some movies didn’t do very well. Hands back your polling cards, girls.
    One of the front page authors tried to play the "Feminism is dead" card too. I just pointed out that the Helen Slater Supergirl, Halle Berry Catwoman and Elektra movies didn't harm anything.

    some sad sh*t.
    "Cable was right!"

  14. #464
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
    For example, women can write good stories, direct good stuff even if it's men's stories. It's wrong to block a good female writer simply because of her gender, that's wrong.

    But on the other hand, men can write good female stories as well, it's also not wise to specifically choose someone because she's a woman, this applies to everything else.
    Btw. all the characters staring in Birds of Prey were created by men and had some of their most popular and important stories written by men...

  15. #465
    Incredible Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j9ac9k View Post
    ^^That's the point that I'm trying to make. But you can't prove that pushing an agenda leads to a "high chance" of a film being bad. I find that argument to be flawed for all the reasons I've been trying to convey.
    I did speak about why, you can choose to ignore it.

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