Birds of Prey Reactions

[kjn]

Does anyone ever use the term "Mary Sue" in the Right way? And if you say Ares has his reasons the same holds true for the Captain Marvel Villians.
And again you got the term wrong bland does not mean "no reason"

I do. (A female self-insert and wish-fulfillment character in a Star Trek fanfic.)

Which is why I almost never use the term, notwithstanding that is has become connotated with dismissal of female writers.

However, discussion about the term, the use of the male "equivalent" Gary Stu (about as badly misused), and some reading led me to start developing an idea for what I call the "friendship fantasy". A young character, often misunderstood in their old social environment, leaves it and finds a new group of people where they fit and gain friends. Often they find (or stumble upon) easy solutions to complex personal or interpersonal issues. They selflessly help—either by volunteering or after being asked—nearly everyone around them, one of which often is another loner. However, they tend to be overachieving and never ask for help, which often turns out to bite them somewhere in the plot.

Bringing this back on-topic, one can see bits and pieces of this in Birds of Prey, though it's more in the aggregate and not tied to any specific character.

It's rather clear that every one of protagonist characters are stuck in bad spots. Harley Quinn was dumped/broke up, and has no friends. Renee Montoya got stuck in a career dead end. Black Canary is underpaid and with a boss which sees her as someone to be used. Cassandra Cain is placed in a bad foster home. The only one of them who actively asks for help is Renee, and that is due to the investigation and to help Cassandra. However, Renee, Black Canary, and Harley Quinn all choose to go to the assistance of other characters, without being asked, and those interventions prove central both to them getting through the day and creating the personal connections between them.

[Aahz]

The original author is a super conservative far-right guy too.

But Chuck Dixon wasn't the only male creator who wrote defining stories for these characters. There were also Paul Dini, Greg Rucka, Kelly Puckett (if you count the Cassandra in BoP as a version of his Cassandra) and probably some other.

[Slowpokeking]

Does anyone ever use the term "Mary Sue" in the Right way? And if you say Ares has his reasons the same holds true for the Captain Marvel Villians.
And again you got the term wrong bland does not mean "no reason"

Mary Sue varies, in this case, it wasn't extreme but still there.

True they might have good reason but it wasn't expanded, like I said they got the potential but it just became good VS bad after it was revealed.

Ares, on the other hand, stated his points, let the fact show the heroine, and even WW agreed he was right in a degree, this didn't happen to Jude Law's character or the supreme intelligence AI.

[Slowpokeking]

I do. (A female self-insert and wish-fulfillment character in a Star Trek fanfic.)

Which is why I almost never use the term, notwithstanding that is has become connotated with dismissal of female writers.

However, discussion about the term, the use of the male "equivalent" Gary Stu (about as badly misused), and some reading led me to start developing an idea for what I call the "friendship fantasy". A young character, often misunderstood in their old social environment, leaves it and finds a new group of people where they fit and gain friends. Often they find (or stumble upon) easy solutions to complex personal or interpersonal issues. They selflessly help—either by volunteering or after being asked—nearly everyone around them, one of which often is another loner. However, they tend to be overachieving and never ask for help, which often turns out to bite them somewhere in the plot.

Bringing this back on-topic, one can see bits and pieces of this in Birds of Prey, though it's more in the aggregate and not tied to any specific character.

It's rather clear that every one of protagonist characters are stuck in bad spots. Harley Quinn was dumped/broke up, and has no friends. Renee Montoya got stuck in a career dead end. Black Canary is underpaid and with a boss which sees her as someone to be used. Cassandra Cain is placed in a bad foster home. The only one of them who actively asks for help is Renee, and that is due to the investigation and to help Cassandra. However, Renee, Black Canary, and Harley Quinn all choose to go to the assistance of other characters, without being asked, and those interventions prove central both to them getting through the day and creating the personal connections between them.

Mary Sue is never about gender. Both male and female characters can be a Sue.

[Vakanai]

Dear lord I hate all this feminism/anti-feminisim ranting. Frankly I think it being a female led film had nothing to do with it's relatively poor showing thus far, but I'm not going to spend hours debating a troll over it. Some men are...meh. But it's no skin of my back. I'd rather talk about the actual film itself than all the made up political poop of the day, but that's just me.


And speaking of talking about the film itself - I saw it last week with my mom. We both had a great time, she thought it was great, and I enjoyed it a lot. Not going to be the best CBM movie this year (not unless BW and WW84 somehow really screw the pooch), but it was fun, funny, action packed, and I liked the characters for what they were (helps I'm no huge BoP fan). As for the R rating, I don't know, I feel there'd be something missing without Harley breaking kneecaps left and right because that's apparently her go to move now (seriously, that was just wicked and made me wince, knee pain is no joke). It was a good movie and a fun time, and it really deserves to be doing better than it is, and certainly deserves better than all this talk over gender politics of all things. Trying to say the message got in the way some how, anyone who thinks that didn't watch the movie because the main message of this movie is "Sit back, relax, and watch Harley bust some kneecaps!" Which is a pretty fine message.

[Powerboy]

Dear lord I hate all this feminism/anti-feminisim ranting. Frankly I think it being a female led film had nothing to do with it's relatively poor showing thus far, but I'm not going to spend hours debating a troll over it. Some men are...meh. But it's no skin of my back. I'd rather talk about the actual film itself than all the made up political poop of the day, but that's just me.


And speaking of talking about the film itself - I saw it last week with my mom. We both had a great time, she thought it was great, and I enjoyed it a lot. Not going to be the best CBM movie this year (not unless BW and WW84 somehow really screw the pooch), but it was fun, funny, action packed, and I liked the characters for what they were (helps I'm no huge BoP fan). As for the R rating, I don't know, I feel there'd be something missing without Harley breaking kneecaps left and right because that's apparently her go to move now (seriously, that was just wicked and made me wince, knee pain is no joke). It was a good movie and a fun time, and it really deserves to be doing better than it is, and certainly deserves better than all this talk over gender politics of all things. Trying to say the message got in the way some how, anyone who thinks that didn't watch the movie because the main message of this movie is "Sit back, relax, and watch Harley bust some kneecaps!" Which is a pretty fine message.

In my opinion, after all the back and forth vitriol, it was a decent movie. It wasn't in the upper tier of the MCU but it wasn't in the lower either.

All the conservative backlash and the personal dislike of the actress really made no difference because most people just go to a movie to be entertained and the MCU has a good will expectation that it will be entertaining which the movie was.

That it made a billion dollars kind of surprised me but it was an MCU movie just before the big finale. Larson and Jackson being in it brought in lots of Larson and Jackson fans. People probably kept hearing and seeing the name "Captain Marvel" because of all the hoopla whether they paid attention to the details or not. If anything, being "controversial" tends to sell tickets even if the movie itself contained none of that controversy.

[Slowpokeking]

In my opinion, after all the back and forth vitriol, it was a decent movie. It wasn't in the upper tier of the MCU but it wasn't in the lower either.

All the conservative backlash and the personal dislike of the actress really made no difference because most people just go to a movie to be entertained and the MCU has a good will expectation that it will be entertaining which the movie was.

That it made a billion dollars kind of surprised me but it was an MCU movie just before the big finale. Larson and Jackson being in it brought in lots of Larson and Jackson fans. People probably kept hearing and seeing the name "Captain Marvel" because of all the hoopla whether they paid attention to the details or not. If anything, being "controversial" tends to sell tickets even if the movie itself contained none of that controversy.

Yeah it was decent if we put aside everything.

But the production, the marketing, the R rating, and the interview and the disrespect of the source material certainly caused the situation. Ppl want to be entertained but some of the comments from the crew let they think "Oh it's another lecture". I don't care about what kind of ppl the actors are off the stage but I certainly would have concern if they said "this movie is about blah blah blah lecture". Especially Ewan's interview was not well received.

Trying to use a heroine group in the comic to support a character like Harley is also a bad idea.

Imagine if Sonic didn't do the change, the box office might not be such a big hit, ppl care about what they see.

Why did MCU continue to succeed? Because its good movies like IM1, CA2 and Avengers brought the reputation up. Also they have Feige to oversee the stuff to prevent anything from going too wild. But will it flop in the future if it makes mistakes? Possibly. No movie franchise could always shine.

[Vakanai]

In my opinion, after all the back and forth vitriol, it was a decent movie. It wasn't in the upper tier of the MCU but it wasn't in the lower either.

All the conservative backlash and the personal dislike of the actress really made no difference because most people just go to a movie to be entertained and the MCU has a good will expectation that it will be entertaining which the movie was.

That it made a billion dollars kind of surprised me but it was an MCU movie just before the big finale. Larson and Jackson being in it brought in lots of Larson and Jackson fans. People probably kept hearing and seeing the name "Captain Marvel" because of all the hoopla whether they paid attention to the details or not. If anything, being "controversial" tends to sell tickets even if the movie itself contained none of that controversy.

Um...I said nothing about Captain Marvel in my post.

[Slowpokeking]

Brie Larson is actually a good example. She is a very good actress, so as long as you let her stay as actor and cast her right, it's only going to boost up everything in the movie. I don't care about what kind of person she is or what view does she hold, her screen image and acting is all that matters.

But if you give her more power, or even give her the helm of the producer, that would probably go wild.

[titanfan]

Forbes Analysis: https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottme.../#3dda1ff1d519

(Summary: Quinn isn't a huge hit or a massive bomb--merely a disappointment)

[Frobisher]

Does anyone ever use the term "Mary Sue" in the Right way? And if you say Ares has his reasons the same holds true for the Captain Marvel Villians.
And again you got the term wrong bland does not mean "no reason"

Mary Sue is shorthand for female lead, I think. If a Male lead has unearned abilities inherited from mysterious parentage it’s just hero’s journey, which is fine of course.

[lowfyr]

I do. (A female self-insert and wish-fulfillment character in a Star Trek fanfic.)

Which is why I almost never use the term, notwithstanding that is has become connotated with dismissal of female writers.

However, discussion about the term, the use of the male "equivalent" Gary Stu (about as badly misused), and some reading led me to start developing an idea for what I call the "friendship fantasy". A young character, often misunderstood in their old social environment, leaves it and finds a new group of people where they fit and gain friends. Often they find (or stumble upon) easy solutions to complex personal or interpersonal issues. They selflessly help—either by volunteering or after being asked—nearly everyone around them, one of which often is another loner. However, they tend to be overachieving and never ask for help, which often turns out to bite them somewhere in the plot.

Bringing this back on-topic, one can see bits and pieces of this in Birds of Prey, though it's more in the aggregate and not tied to any specific character.

It's rather clear that every one of protagonist characters are stuck in bad spots. Harley Quinn was dumped/broke up, and has no friends. Renee Montoya got stuck in a career dead end. Black Canary is underpaid and with a boss which sees her as someone to be used. Cassandra Cain is placed in a bad foster home. The only one of them who actively asks for help is Renee, and that is due to the investigation and to help Cassandra. However, Renee, Black Canary, and Harley Quinn all choose to go to the assistance of other characters, without being asked, and those interventions prove central both to them getting through the day and creating the personal connections between them.

You may be one of the few than^^ The usual use is dead wrong and Looks more like " they dared to use a female in an Action role".

[lowfyr]

Mary Sue is shorthand for female lead, I think. If a Male lead has unearned abilities inherited from mysterious parentage it’s just hero’s journey, which is fine of course.

I understand how you can get this impression

[Username taken]

Mary Sue is shorthand for female lead, I think. If a Male lead has unearned abilities inherited from mysterious parentage it’s just hero’s journey, which is fine of course.

Male Hero kicks ass, guns people down in all sort of creative ways, solves unsolvable puzzles, kills the villain in two hits.

Some audience members: Damn, he's such a bad ass! I love this guy!

Female Hero kicks ass, guns people down in all sort of creative ways, solves unsolvable puzzles, kills the villain in two hits.

Same audience members: Where did she get those skills from? Why is she so strong?? Why are the men so weak??? Why is she so smart???! She's a Mary Suuuuuuueeeeeeeee!!!!

[lowfyr]

Mary Sue varies, in this case, it wasn't extreme but still there.

True they might have good reason but it wasn't expanded, like I said they got the potential but it just became good VS bad after it was revealed.

Ares, on the other hand, stated his points, let the fact show the heroine, and even WW agreed he was right in a degree, this didn't happen to Jude Law's character or the supreme intelligence AI.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue
That is the Definition. What you mean is what People make up About it to try to illustrate their point , that is usually "Woman takes an Action role and is in the lead".

And again you wrote Ares has his reasons to do what he does. So does the SI and the rest of the villians of Captain Marvel. Having a reason is not the same as being Right to a Degree either.

But nice to see that you can still make stuff up About CM or Brie Larson.