Birds of Prey Reactions

[Slowpokeking]

You keep saying Captain Marvel is a bad movie, but haven't said why. So I'm asking.

Mostly the plot and characterization.

The first half was ok, while it's easy to guess what happened.

The 2nd half was just bad, after the truth was revealed, it just became a very Mary Sueish dumb fight. The villains are weak and didn't cause much trouble or feel menacing, it's just Carol smash them. The characterization of the villains are also weak, especially since there are potential for them.

Carol worked with them for a while, but there is no struggle or development between them. Jude Law's character was quite wasted.

Wonder Woman's last fight was a bit weak, but there is struggle, development and the emotional climax. Ares was also not a bland villain, he had his reason.

[titanfan]

Btw. all the characters staring in Birds of Prey were created by men and had some of their most popular and important stories written by men...

The original author is a super conservative far-right guy too.

[Slowpokeking]

One of the front page authors tried to play the "Feminism is dead" card too. I just pointed out that the Helen Slater Supergirl, Halle Berry Catwoman and Elektra movies didn't harm anything.

some sad sh*t.

Helen Slater's supergirl movie failed, but her character and portrayal was perfect. I've yet to see anyone criticize that.

[Slowpokeking]

That's the problem, the discussion has shifted away from the actual quality of the movie to "feminism".

It's like the movie's quality or lack thereof is being ignored entirely because it was made by a woman and features female characters.

There is a difference between "choose her because she's female" or "choose her because she's good, regardless of gender".

Cathy Yan is a fine director, but she obviously lacks experience of blockbusters and might not be the best choice. Same for Elizabeth Banks, she's a good actor, a fine director but also needs more experience for blockbuster and she is not a good screenplay writer.

Also if you try to push too hard to deliver a message instead of trying to tell a good story first, limit the characterization upon certain group of characters, it's gonna hurt the movie as well.

[titanfan]

Also if you try to push too hard to deliver a message instead of trying to tell a good story first, limit the characterization upon certain group of characters, it's gonna hurt the movie as well.

There are a lot of "message driven" movies out there that do well. Pretty much all of the other Oscar Nominees. There's always the "What are you trying to say?" writing professor out there.

I do understand your point. If you go into a movie that might have a limited audience then you have to budget and market accordingly. (I think WB did and overestimated their reach) Movies like Hustlers, and Oceans8, both were written (mainly) for women, had a smaller budgets and both would be considered box office successes.

[j9ac9k]

I did speak about why, you can choose to ignore it.

You did, but it's opinion, not "proof."

[Slowpokeking]

There are a lot of "message driven" movies out there that do well. Pretty much all of the other Oscar Nominees. There's always the "What are you trying to say?" writing professor out there.

I do understand your point. If you go into a movie that might have a limited audience then you have to budget and market accordingly. (I think WB did and overestimated their reach) Movies like Hustlers, and Oceans8, both were written (mainly) for women, had a smaller budgets and both would be considered box office successes.

True, you can make good movies with a message if you have the skill. But usually during the production you have to put quality before message first. Also not trying to push too hard to show the bias, it's like a book author should not always jump in to tell the readers what's right or wrong, while even War and Peace does that.

The greatest art works just show it and leave things for ppl to think about.

[Slowpokeking]

I haven't seen BOP, but I've heard fans complain about it being the Harley show, the absence of Barbara Gordon, the changes to Black Canary, and the Cassandra Cain-in-name-only. It could still be a good movie despite that, but I think those are legitimate complaints for people who are fans of those characters or the BOP comics. From the sound of it people think it shouldn't be called Birds of Prey in the first place. This is specifically a problem for comics fans. The gp who never heard of Birds of Prey before couldn't care less about this sort of thing and enjoy the movie for what it is.

It's not just a problem for comic fans. BoP characters have some popularity among general audience. And it's not like these changes made it better than their comic portrayal, it went the opposite way. They obviously are cooler heroines in the comic.

The movie still stands because Harley Quinn, the main character, is perfectly cast and acted greatly.

[Steel Inquisitor]

The original author is a super conservative far-right guy too.

Thankfully we have Gail Simone's run, and she had a female artist for a long part of it, too.

[skyvolt2000]

There is a difference between "choose her because she's female" or "choose her because she's good, regardless of gender".

Also if you try to push too hard to deliver a message instead of trying to tell a good story first, limit the characterization upon certain group of characters, it's gonna hurt the movie as well.

Where is your evidence that they didn't do that?

What blockbuster movie did Ryan Coolger direct before Black Panther? He did 2 movies-Creed & Fruitville Station. Nobody questioned him.
Nor Jonathan Frankes-Star Trek First Contact was his first block buster
Nor F Gary Gray-who has a bunch of flops before getting Straight out of Compton & Fast & Furious.
Nor Justin Lin
Nor Rick Famuyiwa and Dc wanted him for Flash
Nor Josh Trank (before FF)
Nor Jeff Fowler-who did a short before Sonic The Hedgehog

And Patty Jenkins, Cate Shortland & Ava DuVernay say hi. Nobody question their hires. So why question Cathy's?

[Slowpokeking]

Where is your evidence that they didn't do that?

https://collider.com/harley-quinn-mo...bie/#cathy-yan

“And then of course having a female director to tell that story. And giving a female director the chance to do big budget stuff. They always get ‘Here’s the tiny little film’… I was like, ‘I love action. I love action films. I’m a girl. What, are we meant to only like a specific thing’?” So it was a hugely important to find a female director for this, if possible. But at the end of the day — male, female — the best director gets the job and Cathy was the best director.

Eh Robbie said herself?

What blockbuster movie did Ryan Coolger direct before Black Panther? He did 2 movies-Creed & Fruitville Station. Nobody questioned him.
Nor Jonathan Frankes-Star Trek First Contact was his first block buster
Nor F Gary Gray-who has a bunch of flops before getting Straight out of Compton & Fast & Furious.
Nor Justin Lin
Nor Rick Famuyiwa and Dc wanted him for Flash
Nor Josh Trank (before FF)
Nor Jeff Fowler-who did a short before Sonic The Hedgehog

And Patty Jenkins, Cate Shortland & Ava DuVernay say hi. Nobody question their hires. So why question Cathy's?

Sure there are many directors who succeed on their first run, but there are also many flops. Elizabeth Banks is a new example as the screenplay writer as well.

The flop is here, the direction certainly was part of the problem. I don't think Cathy is bad so actually I am finding excuse for her. I don't blame her too much, it's mostly Robbie and WB's fault as the producer. But "choose him/her because he/she's male/female/whatever" is not a good way to get things done nicely.

[Slowpokeking]

Even in literature, many strong rebellious women were written by men. Such as Carmen, Anna Karenina and Madam Bovary. Same for the opposite, such as Frankenstein and my favorite Heathcliff were written by women.

[Powerboy]

At ther comic shop today, someone informed me that "Birds of Prey" is now "Harley Quinn and the Birds of Prey" in a desperate attempt to start selling tickets.

[lowfyr]

I did speak about why, you can choose to ignore it.

Your opinion and fact are not the same.

[lowfyr]

Mostly the plot and characterization.

The first half was ok, while it's easy to guess what happened.

The 2nd half was just bad, after the truth was revealed, it just became a very Mary Sueish dumb fight. The villains are weak and didn't cause much trouble or feel menacing, it's just Carol smash them. The characterization of the villains are also weak, especially since there are potential for them.

Carol worked with them for a while, but there is no struggle or development between them. Jude Law's character was quite wasted.

Wonder Woman's last fight was a bit weak, but there is struggle, development and the emotional climax. Ares was also not a bland villain, he had his reason.

Does anyone ever use the term "Mary Sue" in the Right way? And if you say Ares has his reasons the same holds true for the Captain Marvel Villians.
And again you got the term wrong bland does not mean "no reason"