Birds of Prey Reactions

[The Cool Thatguy]

The superhero genre is miserable today for becoming escapist entertainment without thinking too much about themes. I cannot say if this is what led to the downfall of birds of prey but the film is no Joker. You don't have to love Joker but it is not meant to be escapist entertainment. Birds of prey was meant to be. DC is afraid of taking itself too seriously when it concerns the DCEU.

Yes, because Batman vs. Superman was a lighthearted treat.

[Marvelgirl]

Yes, because Batman vs. Superman was a lighthearted treat.

Batman vs Superman was part of the point I was trying to get across that DC became scared to take itself seriously. It went as far back as Avengers and The Dark Knight Rises. Dark Knight Rises was largely ignored because it wasn't as fun and as lighthearted as Avengers though it exceeded Avengers as a thoughtful film.

[Wandering_Wand]

DC/WB really can't even win for trying with the CBM audience.
The primary criticism of Man of Steel and Batman v Superman was that the DCEU films were taking themselves too seriously.


Birds of Prey's failures stem from three things: the unsightly and ridiculously long title, lack of Birds of Prey, and the R rating.
I'm not going to argue with anyone on whether they agree with those things or not because it'll be irrelevant to me. Had those three things changed, the movie would have been far more successful at the box office.

"Harley Quinn introducing the Birds of Prey"
Actually showing more of Canary, Huntress, maybe even having Batgirl somewhere or even mentioned, and also being more faithful to Cassandra Cain.
And a PG-13 rating which would have drawn a bunch of teenagers…


The movie itself wasn't bad to me, it was just underwhelming. It was very much a one and done for me.

[Frobisher]

DC/WB really can't even win for trying with the CBM audience.
The primary criticism of Man of Steel and Batman v Superman was that the DCEU films were taking themselves too seriously.

No, it’s that they were boring, non-sensical, and dour. The Dark Knight took itself incredibly seriously and everyone loved that, because it was well executed.

[Username taken]

No, it’s that they were boring, non-sensical, and dour. The Dark Knight took itself incredibly seriously and everyone loved that, because it was well executed.

Quoted for truth.

I think MOS is underrated but BvS is just flat out boring.

The Dark Knight and even Joker more recently very serious and both cleared a billion dollars.

[Marvelgirl]

No, it’s that they were boring, non-sensical, and dour. The Dark Knight took itself incredibly seriously and everyone loved that, because it was well executed.

The Dark Knight belonged to a golden time of superhero films. It was one of the last great entries of that era. This was an era when superhero films had to be thought provoking and take itself extremely seriously aka X-Men opening in Auschwitz camps or Christopher Nolan giving Batman severe realism that we had never seen before in a batman film.

Superhero films have shifted more to comedy and subtle parody because of the MCU. DCEU was trying to capitalise on the legacy of the dark knight films when they released Man of Steel and Batman v Superman. The down side of this was the MCU were now in charge. DCEU could not win on any terms unless they copied MCU.

For DCEU to keep thriving, they have to keep copying the MCU. When they want to get serious they will make another elseworld Joker sort of movie. To spell it out. The serious DC movies would not be part of the DCEU.

[kjn]

Superhero films have shifted more to comedy and subtle parody because of the MCU. DCEU was trying to capitalise on the legacy of the dark knight films when they released Man of Steel and Batman v Superman. The down side of this was the MCU were now in charge. DCEU could not win on any terms unless they copied MCU.

For DCEU to keep thriving, they have to keep copying the MCU. When they want to get serious they will make another elseworld Joker sort of movie. To spell it out. The serious DC movies would not be part of the DCEU.

I'm not sure your assumptions are correct.

Sure, the MCU movies are largely as you describe (though you can find more than a few exceptions and MCU movies with more than a little thematic depth), and the most commercially successful DCEU movie—Aquaman—was rather close to the MCU movies in its narrative and stylistic aesthetic.

But 2017 saw two superhero movies that both broke the MCU mold, and both were highly successful: Logan and Wonder Woman.

[80sbaby]

There's never been a tone when superhero movies HAD to be thought provoking. NEVER. Ironman came out just before TDK and did extremely well. People really need to stop trying to justify their preferences as objective truth. Just admit it's what you prefer, specifically.

[Nate Grey]

You can still enjoy the Matrix as escapism while knowing it’s an allegory for transgenderism.

really? How?

There's this, but its from the Matrix Online game and not many people even know it exists.

Basically the Machines recycled Neo's RSI code into a female body named Sara Edmontons (an anagram for Thomas Anderson). Though I thought that was done as nod to Lana Wachowski.

[Noodle]

There's this, but its from the Matrix Online game and not many people even know it exists.

Basically the Machines recycled Neo's RSI code into a female body named Sara Edmontons (an anagram for Thomas Anderson). Though I thought that was done as nod to Lana Wachowski.

It's about a person that feels out of place in the world, takes a pill, and changes to who they feel they truly are. The main villain also continues to call him by his old name (Mr. Anderson) and not his new one (Neo).

Personally, I don't 100% agree and feel it's more "looking for things that aren't there" for the allegory, but even if you remove that it's still a political movie about class systems and how "the machine" feeds off the lower class to keep itself in power.

[Pinsir]

I have a hard time seeing it as a feminist movie, simply because Harley's entire character is defined by her ex-boyfriend

Except ordinary women are often defined by their relationships to men, in particular their sexual relationships with them.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Except ordinary women are often defined by their relationships to men, in particular their sexual relationships with them.

That's true. But context matters.

Harley initiated a romantic/sexual relationship with her patient (Joker), knowing he was a sociopath/killer.

If someone gets hit by a drunk driver, we feel sympathy.

If someone is the drunk driver...less so.

[Marvelgirl]

I'm not sure your assumptions are correct.

Sure, the MCU movies are largely as you describe (though you can find more than a few exceptions and MCU movies with more than a little thematic depth), and the most commercially successful DCEU movie—Aquaman—was rather close to the MCU movies in its narrative and stylistic aesthetic.

But 2017 saw two superhero movies that both broke the MCU mold, and both were highly successful: Logan and Wonder Woman.

There were other successful superhero films before Logan and Wonderwoman that never copied the MCU narrative and stylistic aesthetic. Man of Steel, Days Of Future Past, Into the Spiderverse, Red 2, Deadpool.

No, it’s that they were boring, non-sensical, and dour. The Dark Knight took itself incredibly seriously and everyone loved that, because it was well executed.

Harley Quinn is supposed to be more Deadpool than The Dark Knight.

[Pinsir]

That's true. But context matters.

Harley initiated a romantic/sexual relationship with her patient (Joker), knowing he was a sociopath/killer.

If someone gets hit by a drunk driver, we feel sympathy.

If someone is the drunk driver...less so.

I'm pretty sure you just pulled a Motte and Bailey; before you argued HQ's relationship doesn't make the film feminist and now you're arguing that this makes her unsympathetic, which is a more agreeable position. HQ being sympathetic and the film not being feminist isn't the same argument.

I should also note that your framing of Jokers/HQs relationship is a bit disingenuous. HQ is usually portrayed as being mentally/physically abused by the Joker. She's basically a battered wife. So a story about a woman breaking away from an abusive relationship can certainly be feminist.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I'm pretty sure you just pulled a Motte and Bailey; before you argued HQ's relationship doesn't make the film feminist and now you're arguing that this makes her unsympathetic, which is a more agreeable position. HQ being sympathetic and the film not being feminist isn't the same argument.

I should also note that your framing of Jokers/HQs relationship is a bit disingenuous. HQ is usually portrayed as being mentally/physically abused by the Joker. She's basically a battered wife. So a story about a woman breaking away from an abusive relationship can certainly be feminist.

I don't much see it either/or, honestly.

Lets break down Harley's relationship with Joker for a moment.

He was her patient, under her care. She knew he was a murderous sociopath. She instigated a relationship anyways.

So yeah. She went into the relationship knowing the kind of man Joker was. Joker can at least blame insanity, but what's her excuse?

A doctor who starts a romantic/sexual relationship with their patient, who they are supposed to be treating, is considered a creep. I presume that's true regardless of gender?

And battered wife doesn't really work for Harley, because to what degree that's true of her character (it varies based on the canon), she still enables Joker's crimes. Joker hurting her, is not an excuse for Harley to hurt others.

Mind, I don't care about any of this, if the focus were on comedy. Harley's cartoon is f**king great.

But seeing her movie (and it was her movie) as some super feminist movie? Especially when she uses more deserving characters as stepping stones?

Yeah, no, sorry.