Birds of Prey Reactions

[lowfyr]

The Dark Knight belonged to a golden time of superhero films. It was one of the last great entries of that era. This was an era when superhero films had to be thought provoking and take itself extremely seriously aka X-Men opening in Auschwitz camps or Christopher Nolan giving Batman severe realism that we had never seen before in a batman film.

Superhero films have shifted more to comedy and subtle parody because of the MCU. DCEU was trying to capitalise on the legacy of the dark knight films when they released Man of Steel and Batman v Superman. The down side of this was the MCU were now in charge. DCEU could not win on any terms unless they copied MCU.

For DCEU to keep thriving, they have to keep copying the MCU. When they want to get serious they will make another elseworld Joker sort of movie. To spell it out. The serious DC movies would not be part of the DCEU.

"This was an era when superhero films had to be thought provoking " really? Do you ignore stuff that does not fit your opinion as usual?
And as usual your bias is showing.
Saying that the X-Men movies were " thought provoking " and "take itself extremely seriously " and ignoring stuff that happened in the MCU that were no Comedy, are one reason that I find it impossible to take your comments seriously.

Movies can be both, you know. Even Dark Knight dared to make some jokes. But seeing that would require moving beyong your usual trolling.

[lowfyr]

There were other successful superhero films before Logan and Wonderwoman that never copied the MCU narrative and stylistic aesthetic. Man of Steel, Days Of Future Past, Into the Spiderverse, Red 2, Deadpool.



Harley Quinn is supposed to be more Deadpool than The Dark Knight.

Red 2 is not a superhero movie. It is a Comic book movie. Or will you make the Argument About Road to Perdition, too?

[Pinsir]

I don't much see it either/or, honestly.

Lets break down Harley's relationship with Joker for a moment.

He was her patient, under her care. She knew he was a murderous sociopath. She instigated a relationship anyways.

So yeah. She went into the relationship knowing the kind of man Joker was. Joker can at least blame insanity, but what's her excuse?

A doctor who starts a romantic/sexual relationship with their patient, who they are supposed to be treating, is considered a creep. I presume that's true regardless of gender?

This is a general rule not a universal one. I mean we've all read doujins where a youthful protagonist uses a magic charm to brain wash his teacher/mom/god. A major part of the Joker's character is that he's charismatic and can draw certain people towards them. So in the relationship Joker actually exerted more power than Harley because of his allure, even if Harley technically had some administrative power over him. Harley Quinn's origin story for the DCAU portrays this happening and this has been an element in most versions of the character. This doesn't absolve her of her crimes, but it does make her story more akin to a battered wife/cult scenario. It should also be noted that women in abusive relationships will often commit crimes with/for their abuser.

[The Cool Thatguy]

This is a general rule not a universal one. I mean we've all read doujins where a youthful protagonist uses a magic charm to brain wash his teacher/mom/god. A major part of the Joker's character is that he's charismatic and can draw certain people towards them. So in the relationship Joker actually exerted more power than Harley because of his allure, even if Harley technically had some administrative power over him. Harley Quinn's origin story for the DCAU portrays this happening and this has been an element in most versions of the character. This doesn't absolve her of her crimes, but it does make her story more akin to a battered wife/cult scenario. It should also be noted that women in abusive relationships will often commit crimes with/for their abuser.

What I accept in my porn and in my non porn are two different things

[Xero Kaiser]

The Dark Knight belonged to a golden time of superhero films. It was one of the last great entries of that era. This was an era when superhero films had to be thought provoking and take itself extremely seriously aka X-Men opening in Auschwitz camps or Christopher Nolan giving Batman severe realism that we had never seen before in a batman film.

Did you watch different versions of Spider-Man, Hellboy, Ghost Rider, F4 and Iron Man than I did?

And battered wife doesn't really work for Harley, because to what degree that's true of her character (it varies based on the canon), she still enables Joker's crimes. Joker hurting her, is not an excuse for Harley to hurt others.

Yeah, I don't like this, "poor wittle Harley" routine that's being pushed lately. Maybe you could do that with the old B:TAS version of Harley but not this modern version of her that's blowing up little kids on Christmas. Even if Joker was abusive to her, I'm not entirely sure why I should care.

I mean, it's not Joker's fault he's crazy either but nobody acts like we're supposed to feel sorry for him.

[titanfan]

Yeah, I don't like this, "poor wittle Harley" routine that's being pushed lately. Maybe you could do that with the old B:TAS version of Harley but not this modern version of her that's blowing up little kids on Christmas. Even if Joker was abusive to her, I'm not entirely sure why I should care.

You're not supposed to care. But that's the part of her origin that's relatable. Think of all the women (and men) you know that fell for absolutely the wrong person, who treated them like total trash, made them do stupid things in the name of love, etc. People either see themselves in her, or know someone like her. It's obviously a totally extreme example, but it's a story that you understand because it happens in the real world all the time. Your friends who choose (obviously) the wrong person--you don't necessarily feel sorry for them either, but they're still your friend, etc.

[Agent Z]

I mean, it's not Joker's fault he's crazy either but nobody acts like we're supposed to feel sorry for him.

They have at times.

[Jokerz79]

Catwoman, Daredevil, Elektra, the Ghost Rider Films, Spider-Man 3, Jonah Hex, Green Lantern, X-Men the Last Stand, Wolverine X-Men Origins, the Amazing Spider-Man films, yeah I don't remember the Pre and Early MCU era being some era of Superhero quality the duds IMO outnumber the good to great films.

[Lightning Rider]

Most of this thread appears to be boring talk about the political undertones of this and other women-led films, but between the lines I've seen more people say they enjoyed the film than disliked it, which surprised me.

I didn't go in with high expectations but I was pretty surprised at how bad the movie was. The story seemed to have no central plot, the team gets together at the very last minute, the climax falls flat, the humor fails, and the actors have no real chemistry and most aside from Robbie and McGregor turn in bad performances.

Spoilers ahead:

The movie starts off alright introducing Harley's breakup (even if its a bit indulgent), but very quickly the introductions of the characters are muddled and diluted in the constant rewind back-and-forth. I could see they were trying to be clever or creative but it just sucked the momentum out of the plot. I was also a bit confused early on whether to take the movie seriously or not. Some of the emotional beats for Harley are supposed to be genuine, but so much of the danger seems trivial.

The biggest fail for me is that the characters are hardly fleshed out outside of their context in the climax. Black Mask is torturing some guy for no reason and his backstory is purely exposition, as is Montoya's and Huntress's. Black Canary's situation as a singer down on her luck didn't really strike a chord with me, and her confrontation with Montoya about her mother sounded pretty cliche.

One place I thought the movie really started falling apart was the scene with the Taiwanese storeowner (who calls her Lotus Flower...wtf), in terms of both editing and story. In a movie already stuffed with shallow introductions for supporting characters and trivial henchmen, it was hard to buy that he was anyone actually important to her. Later, once Huntress shows up, the scene cuts away right as the storeowner asks who she's looking for...yet Huntress doesn't find Harley then, so what happened? After Harley has to escape from Black Mask goons, and not Huntress, the storeowner reveals that he betrayed her because it's "just business", and it's supposed to be this big emotional moment for Harley that just doesn't ring true because this dude is random as hell. Then we suddenly see Huntress in the last shot of the scene where BM is lashing out at a club guest, even I never remember it being established that she was there to begin with.

Also, I thought McGregor did a decent job at capturing Black Mask's manic style, but the way they shot him was weird. He would yell "Woo!" out of nowhere with nobody else in the shot to interact with, and sometimes he'd speak and the camera pans away from him while he's still speaking. When he first instructs Canary and Zsas to get the diamond, they speak at the same time and it comes out muddled. Just weird editing.

Once the girls actually teams up (just minutes before the third act concludes), none of the chemistry works. Huntress's deadpan was bad, Canary's humor was awkward. I thought Perez as Montoya was alright, if a bit wooden. Cain was undoubtedly the worst. Her lines were bad, and the actress couldn't sell them at all. Everything she said was confrontational teenage cliches and she spit them out in a really forced way.

I found that even the action weird. Every scene was just them beating up on goons. There wasn't much flow to the fights, it would just shift from one slow-motion set-piece to another. It was also weird that Black Mask himself didn't seem to be much of a threat either, and his gang of masked henchmen kind of came out of nowhere.

I didn't expect to like this film, but I didn't want to hate it. I don't really ever want to see it again and I don't think you can reasonably say any of the supporting characters were given enough that they could carry a sequel. And I wouldn't want them to, without basically being revamped and giving proper character backgrounds, at which point I'd say get actresses who were a better fit.

[Slowpokeking]

Most of this thread appears to be boring talk about the political undertones of this and other women-led films,

That's because this movie's supporters and part of the production tried to bind the movie with the propaganda.

I didn't go in with high expectations but I was pretty surprised at how bad the movie was. The story seemed to have no central plot, the team gets together at the very last minute, the climax falls flat, the humor fails, and the actors have no real chemistry and most aside from Robbie and McGregor turn in bad performances.

Spoilers ahead:

The movie starts off alright introducing Harley's breakup (even if its a bit indulgent), but very quickly the introductions of the characters are muddled and diluted in the constant rewind back-and-forth. I could see they were trying to be clever or creative but it just sucked the momentum out of the plot. I was also a bit confused early on whether to take the movie seriously or not. Some of the emotional beats for Harley are supposed to be genuine, but so much of the danger seems trivial.

The biggest fail for me is that the characters are hardly fleshed out outside of their context in the climax. Black Mask is torturing some guy for no reason and his backstory is purely exposition, as is Montoya's and Huntress's. Black Canary's situation as a singer down on her luck didn't really strike a chord with me, and her confrontation with Montoya about her mother sounded pretty cliche.

One place I thought the movie really started falling apart was the scene with the Taiwanese storeowner (who calls her Lotus Flower...wtf), in terms of both editing and story. In a movie already stuffed with shallow introductions for supporting characters and trivial henchmen, it was hard to buy that he was anyone actually important to her. Later, once Huntress shows up, the scene cuts away right as the storeowner asks who she's looking for...yet Huntress doesn't find Harley then, so what happened? After Harley has to escape from Black Mask goons, and not Huntress, the storeowner reveals that he betrayed her because it's "just business", and it's supposed to be this big emotional moment for Harley that just doesn't ring true because this dude is random as hell. Then we suddenly see Huntress in the last shot of the scene where BM is lashing out at a club guest, even I never remember it being established that she was there to begin with.

Also, I thought McGregor did a decent job at capturing Black Mask's manic style, but the way they shot him was weird. He would yell "Woo!" out of nowhere with nobody else in the shot to interact with, and sometimes he'd speak and the camera pans away from him while he's still speaking. When he first instructs Canary and Zsas to get the diamond, they speak at the same time and it comes out muddled. Just weird editing.

Once the girls actually teams up (just minutes before the third act concludes), none of the chemistry works. Huntress's deadpan was bad, Canary's humor was awkward. I thought Perez as Montoya was alright, if a bit wooden. Cain was undoubtedly the worst. Her lines were bad, and the actress couldn't sell them at all. Everything she said was confrontational teenage cliches and she spit them out in a really forced way.

I found that even the action weird. Every scene was just them beating up on goons. There wasn't much flow to the fights, it would just shift from one slow-motion set-piece to another. It was also weird that Black Mask himself didn't seem to be much of a threat either, and his gang of masked henchmen kind of came out of nowhere.

I didn't expect to like this film, but I didn't want to hate it. I don't really ever want to see it again and I don't think you can reasonably say any of the supporting characters were given enough that they could carry a sequel. And I wouldn't want them to, without basically being revamped and giving proper character backgrounds, at which point I'd say get actresses who were a better fit.

The biggest problem is the casting and the direction. Cathy Yan obviously doesn't have the experience and skill to make the story cohesive and intensive enough to attract the audience. Many blockbusters have weak plot, but the director could bring it together and let the audience enjoy it when they watch the movie. The action scene was also terrible.

Cathy Yan probably wants to make it more of a superhero movie by show women's lives in Gotham and girl power, but it didn't work well. Also nearly all the male characters are bland bad guys. The BoP doesn't resemble their comic self, nor do they get enough buildup because it's mainly a Harley movie. I'm not joking, the word fail has been written on its face from the beginning and it's easy to see when we got the first trailer. It failed to find its right audience from the start.

[Pinsir]

Yeah, I don't like this, "poor wittle Harley" routine that's being pushed lately. Maybe you could do that with the old B:TAS version of Harley but not this modern version of her that's blowing up little kids on Christmas. Even if Joker was abusive to her, I'm not entirely sure why I should care.

Well, the HQ in this movie didn't blow up kids on Christmas so...irrelevant? (Also that story was kino)

I mean, it's not Joker's fault he's crazy either but nobody acts like we're supposed to feel sorry for him.

There was a movie that came out last year called Joker. Also, some English dude wrote a story called The Killing Joke thirty years ago.

[Guy_McNichts]

So I just gave it a watch. It was okay.

- I'm not a Harley Quinn fan. In fact, I kind of hate her, so that was always going to be a major hurdle for me. The movie didn't change my opinion of her, but I do like Margot Robbie and she's clearly having fun and giving 110%

- Ewan McGregor was also having a blast. He was good.

- Huntress was easily the best part and not in the movie nearly enough.

- Black Canary and Montoya were fine. But a Birds of Prey movie without Barbara Gordon--even if it just an origin of the team--feels wrong.

- The fight scenes were cool, but I guess that's to be expected when you get a John Wick guy.

- For a movie supposedly about Harley emancipating herself and becoming her own woman, it's not really an issue that affects the plot. Until the end, when Black Mask starts taunting her about how she needs the Joker in her life, Harley's co-dependency isn't a factor at all. It might've worked better if the Joker was the villain, but in fairness, I also get why they didn't want to use him.

- Not the first or only to say it, but what they did to Cassandra Cain was inexcusable. There was no reason to call her Cassandra and it made me hate a character that I'd already found pretty irritating.

Far from the worst DCEU movie, but not the best by any stretch.

[kjn]

- Black Canary and Montoya were fine. But a Birds of Prey movie without Barbara Gordon--even if it just an origin of the team--feels wrong.

I think the movie makes much more sense as a Harley Quinn movie featuring some of the Birds of Prey than as a Birds of Prey movie featuring Harley Quinn. And it should have been marketed as such from the beginning.

- For a movie supposedly about Harley emancipating herself and becoming her own woman, it's not really an issue that affects the plot. Until the end, when Black Mask starts taunting her about how she needs the Joker in her life, Harley's co-dependency isn't a factor at all. It might've worked better if the Joker was the villain, but in fairness, I also get why they didn't want to use him.

It's not an explicit plot element, but Harley Quinn and Joker breaking up is one of the main drivers of the entire plot.

* Without them breaking up and Harley wanting to remain free, she wouldn't have been hurt by the other girls talking about her running back to him, and wouldn't have blown up the chemical plant

* That kickstarts Harley Quinn's and Renee Montoya's interactions

* The kidnapping attempt of Harley that Black Canary foils places Black Canary on the inside of Black Mask's organisation

Now, we don't get a psychological drama about Harley Quinn's emancipation, but this is an action comedy. Psychological drama isn't the point of the movie.

[Guy_McNichts]

It's not an explicit plot element, but Harley Quinn and Joker breaking up is one of the main drivers of the entire plot.

* Without them breaking up and Harley wanting to remain free, she wouldn't have been hurt by the other girls talking about her running back to him, and wouldn't have blown up the chemical plant

* That kickstarts Harley Quinn's and Renee Montoya's interactions

* The kidnapping attempt of Harley that Black Canary foils places Black Canary on the inside of Black Mask's organisation

Now, we don't get a psychological drama about Harley Quinn's emancipation, but this is an action comedy. Psychological drama isn't the point of the movie.

I know Harley blowing up the plant sets the plot in motion, but beyond that, her emancipation or desire for such has little to no bearing on the story.

The movie presents itself as a story of Harley freeing herself from an abusive relationship and learning to stand on her own. It's in the title and she states it outright. Her drunken speech about harlequins needing a master suggests her inability to be her own person will be a core conflict. But very little of the actual plot relates to this theme. Most of it is just Harley reacting to people she's wronged trying to kill her. That's not a woman breaking free of her bad relationship...that's an abusive person dealing with the consequences of her actions.

At no point do we get the impression Harley will crawl back to the Joker as other character believe she will. She only agrees to get the diamond for Roman because she's forced to...not due to her co-dependence. The closest this theme gets to being addressed is at the end when Harley tries to give Cassandra up to him after Doc betrays her.

And few of the other characters relate to this conflict or theme either. Huntress is on her revenge quest. Black Canary is the reluctant hero who doesn't want to end up like her mother. Montoya kind of does, but she finds no link or common ground with Harley beyond needing to survive.

Thematically, the movie is kind of a mess is what I'm saying--primarily as it relates to Harley. And honestly, that's a problem that extends from the source material, which is one of the reasons why I really don't like the character.

We don't need psychological drama, but there should be a coherent theme even in an action comedy. Even Venom, as goofy and ridiculous as it was, stuck to its theme.

[kjn]

We don't need psychological drama, but there should be a coherent theme even in an action comedy. Even Venom, as goofy and ridiculous as it was, stuck to its theme.

Here I really must disagree. BoP was very strong thematically, in its exploration of men being unable to respect or even see women, of sisterhood as solidarity, of self-determination. The scene with Roman forcing the woman at the night club to strip is probably one of the best depictions ever of the adage that men fear being laughed at by women, while women fear being killed by men.

BoP was at its core a #MeToo movie.