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  1. #106
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mauled View Post
    Why not use some villains that haven't been done yet like Hammerhead or Tombstone ?
    Those kind of villains don't provide a lot of visual interest. When you have a superhero like Spider-Man with all these powers and abilities, seeing him going against glorified gangsters isn't very interesting. It's fine for comics or cartoons where you have a serial narrative and so you can afford to vary stuff but generally superhero movies, live-action superhero movies, favor big flashy colorful threats and high stakes. That's why street-level or smaller scale threats rarely show up on the movies and are relegated to the side.

    One of the major reasons why the Daredevil movie failed for instance, well among the many reasons given, is that many people felt it was too gritty (which it was for its time) and full of martial artists in tights. So people who are curious about superheroes don't find it fun, and those who want grounded martial arts movies think, "I can watch Bruce Lee, an actual martial artist, wearing no masks, fight other stunt guys at the top of their game instead". Daredevil doesn't have a lot of visual interest to translate out of the comics medium (which is why there has never been a Daredevil cartoon) and his success as a Netflix show is indicative of that. The Punisher same story...dude who fires guns and shoots people, okay that concept sells, but it doesn't sell in a superhero story that depends on visual interest and novelty (i.e. seeing something you can't see in any other genre).

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Those kind of villains don't provide a lot of visual interest. When you have a superhero like Spider-Man with all these powers and abilities, seeing him going against glorified gangsters isn't very interesting. It's fine for comics or cartoons where you have a serial narrative and so you can afford to vary stuff but generally superhero movies, live-action superhero movies, favor big flashy colorful threats and high stakes. That's why street-level or smaller scale threats rarely show up on the movies and are relegated to the side.
    Hammerhead has a misshapen head and dresses like a 70s gangster. Tombstone is a six foot tall albino. These two are not lacking in interesting visuals and if anything would be easier to adapt than the Green Goblin whose cinematic looks have been criticized.


    One of the major reasons why the Daredevil movie failed for instance, well among the many reasons given, is that many people felt it was too gritty (which it was for its time) and full of martial artists in tights. So people who are curious about superheroes don't find it fun, and those who want grounded martial arts movies think, "I can watch Bruce Lee, an actual martial artist, wearing no masks, fight other stunt guys at the top of their game instead". Daredevil doesn't have a lot of visual interest to translate out of the comics medium (which is why there has never been a Daredevil cartoon) and his success as a Netflix show is indicative of that. The Punisher same story...dude who fires guns and shoots people, okay that concept sells, but it doesn't sell in a superhero story that depends on visual interest and novelty (i.e. seeing something you can't see in any other genre).
    This wasn't an issue for the Nolan Batman movies and even the MCU downplays a lot of costumes. Falcon doesn't wear white and brown/red like his comic counterpart and Hawkeye isn't dressed like a purple court jester. Even Captain America mostly wears dark blue outfits.

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Those kind of villains don't provide a lot of visual interest. When you have a superhero like Spider-Man with all these powers and abilities, seeing him going against glorified gangsters isn't very interesting. It's fine for comics or cartoons where you have a serial narrative and so you can afford to vary stuff but generally superhero movies, live-action superhero movies, favor big flashy colorful threats and high stakes. That's why street-level or smaller scale threats rarely show up on the movies and are relegated to the side.

    One of the major reasons why the Daredevil movie failed for instance, well among the many reasons given, is that many people felt it was too gritty (which it was for its time) and full of martial artists in tights. So people who are curious about superheroes don't find it fun, and those who want grounded martial arts movies think, "I can watch Bruce Lee, an actual martial artist, wearing no masks, fight other stunt guys at the top of their game instead". Daredevil doesn't have a lot of visual interest to translate out of the comics medium (which is why there has never been a Daredevil cartoon) and his success as a Netflix show is indicative of that. The Punisher same story...dude who fires guns and shoots people, okay that concept sells, but it doesn't sell in a superhero story that depends on visual interest and novelty (i.e. seeing something you can't see in any other genre).
    I disagree for a few reasons but first off I've always had big issues with The Punisher both in the Comics and in Daredevil Netflix and his own series. He's a murderer and they give the impression he's super cool . I have big moral issues with that.

    Second I disagree because the Kingpin in Netflix Daredevil is super popular amd truly great character and he has no powers, he's just strong. Whereas all the stuff they did with the Ninjas and Iron Fist etc all fell flat.
    Hell the Joker is the most iconic comic book villain of all time and he has no super power.

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Hammerhead has a misshapen head and dresses like a 70s gangster. Tombstone is a six foot tall albino. These two are not lacking in interesting visuals and if anything would be easier to adapt than the Green Goblin whose cinematic looks have been criticized.




    This wasn't an issue for the Nolan Batman movies and even the MCU downplays a lot of costumes. Falcon doesn't wear white and brown/red like his comic counterpart and Hawkeye isn't dressed like a purple court jester. Even Captain America mostly wears dark blue outfits.
    Yep (arguably) the best Marvel movie is Winter Soldier the least Super powered movie and its just Cap (a guy with a shield) fighting his buddy (a guy with a metal arm) and some Nazis (no real powers) and yet that's it.
    While Kingpin from Netlix Daredevil is really well regarded.

    Whereas the Goblin Power Ranger SM1 and then that crazy look from ASM2 are both laughed at by general audiences
    Last edited by Mauled; 07-09-2020 at 09:15 AM.

  5. #110
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Hammerhead has a misshapen head and dresses like a 70s gangster.
    To be pedantic, he's dressing as a 70s version of a 30s gangster. Conway was inspired by Ditko's Crime-Master, who was inspired by Dick Tracy villains. Conway modelled him visually on James Cagney and the Dick Tracy villains he inspired. So it's not quite "70s gangster".

    And it wouldn't really have the visual interest that producers would be able to market very well. Unless you have him become a cyborg like the PS4 game but that's not interesting.

    Visual interest isn't just about costumes. It's about concept. When Spider-Man fights Tombstone and Hammerhead, how will that fight look different from any other fight. How many different fights can you do with Hammerhead and Tombstone that distinguishes them? What different kinds of powers and combats can Spider-Man engage in such a fight? That's what visual interest means.

    Tombstone is a six foot tall albino.
    Demonizing people suffering from albinism or other people with disabilities and conditions is unfashionable these days. It wouldn't fly well. The fact that he's an obscure villain and known among Spider-Man fans has so far prevented scrutiny over that aspect of the character. And I say that as a fan of Tombstone.

    ...than the Green Goblin whose cinematic looks have been criticized.
    The movie with the Green Goblin made more money at the US Box-office than any Spider-Man that came after. Even today. Only one Spider-Man movie made it $400mn at US box office and it's Spider-Man 1 with Willem Dafoe's immortal Green Goblin (FFH didn't make it to $400mn) and adjusted for inflation it's actually $630mn. The criticism of Green Goblin's costume is largely restricted to a self-proclaimed vocal minority of comics readers aka an overwhelming minority of the people who saw that movie. For most people unfamiliar with that, the costume worked pretty well. Like that scene where Goblin threatens Aunt May and looks like a demon on a glider.

    Fundamentally Green Goblin with his glider, his gadgets, and tools has major visual interest. Any Spider-Man fight with him takes to the skies so you see Spider-Man swinging around and chasing a dude on a glider as you saw multiple times in the first movie. The Goblin is also a dangerous physical fighter who can match Spider-Man in speed and strength. That means that in Spider-Man 1, you have multiple fight scenes and encounters with Green Goblin and each fight is different from the last. Likewise, when Spider-Man fights Goblin, he gets to show off every one of his powers and abilities (webbing, web swinging, super-reflexes, speed, super-strength, crawling on walls, Spider-Sense) which is another reason why Goblin, in comics and movies, is his greatest villain. He's what video gamers call a Final Exam Boss.

    This wasn't an issue for the Nolan Batman movies...
    Nolan's Batman movies retains a great deal of visual interest in terms of Batman's gadgets, his Batmobile and Batplane, and Batbike. Batman Begins has Scarecrow so you have cool trippy visuals and hallucinatory scenes. The second movie The Dark Knight as Joker, a very colorful, charismatic, and entertaining villain. The Dark Knight Rises likewise has Catwoman and no one can say Anne Hathaway in a leather costume doesn't have visual interest (while at the same time delaying even further, Felicia Hardy from appearaing on screen). Each movie emphasizes different aspects of Batman as a character, and each villain engages him by giving him chances to use different kind of abilities and gadgets and tools. That sustains visual interest throughout.

    ...and even the MCU downplays a lot of costumes. Falcon doesn't wear white and brown/red like his comic counterpart and Hawkeye isn't dressed like a purple court jester. Even Captain America mostly wears dark blue outfits.
    Falcon and Hawkeye (aka too small to do on the live-action and not senior enough like Scarlett Johanssen to get a pity movie) don't count. Iron Man counts, and look how "shiny and chrome" he is. Or Thor for that matter. In the case of Cap his costume changes across the movies anyway.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 07-09-2020 at 09:36 AM.

  6. #111
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mauled View Post
    Second I disagree because the Kingpin in Netflix Daredevil is super popular amd truly great character and he has no powers,
    The success of D'Onofrio's Kingpin on the Netflix show does not disprove my point about the Kingpin lacking visual interest as a villain in a Spider-Man live-action movie*, I specifically said that such low-key villains work best in TV or serialized dramas on Netflix.

    he's just strong.
    Against Daredevil who aside from super-senses doesn't have any super-strength. D'Onofrio's Fisk would not be a convincing or interesting physical challenge against Spider-Man in any live-action movie.

    Hell the Joker is the most iconic comic book villain of all time and he has no super power.
    Let me clarify. Visual interest isn't just about superpowers. It's about concept and gimmick. The Joker in different movies has a gimmick of an evil comedian or evil philosopher, so his crimes and plots and actions are unpredictable and involves a variety of schemes and ideas. It can include chemical weapons, laughing gas, bombs, him taking over the airwaves and announcing his plans, and so on. So that means Joker gives a film-maker and screenwriter variety. They can pad out action scenes and never lose interest because you can make any weird gimmick and hook with Joker and still tie it to his character.

    Kingpin, Tombstone, and Hammerhead don't have any visual interest to provide to Spider-Man on-screen. They are mobsters who use guns, or work out really hard and fight scenes and encounters between them and Spider-Man get repetitive very fast and test audience's patiences because again the concept of "Spider-Man could really kill these guys if he was a killer so he must hold back" isn't something you can sustain with a wide audience for long. There's a reason why Kingpin has never been featured once as a physical threat in 616 Spider-Man after JMS ended the farce of him as a meaningful threat in Back in Black (the best Spidey-Kingpin story ever).




    *People will bring up ITSV. Let me point out that the villains who caught on in that movie are Aaron Davis' Prowler and Liv Octopus, not dimestore Greenstreet Kingpin with no personality. Nobody is going to rank ITSV Kingpin alongside D'Onofrio or Roscoe Lee Browne or even Michael Clarke Duncan. Furthermore, ITSV Kingpin is openly presented as overlord of actual supervillains like Norman which he never has been in comics. Norman has always outranked Fisk.

  7. #112
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    I feel that they hit all the usual Osborn story beats with the Vulture, and that he would make for a nice recurring arch-villain. He's pretty much filling the Doc Ock role as well, since he seems to be getting a Sinister Six together with Scorpion. Hooray for Michael Keaton!
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  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    I feel that they hit all the usual Osborn story beats with the Vulture, and that he would make for a nice recurring arch-villain. He's pretty much filling the Doc Ock role as well, since he seems to be getting a Sinister Six together with Scorpion. Hooray for Michael Keaton!
    nah doubt it

  9. #114
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    None of them. Spider-Man should always encounter new arch nemesis(who he's not met) from different parts of the Marvel Universe. I want to see him fight the Shadowking and Omega Red. The Japanese manga doesn't have the protagonist fight the same villains twice. Dragonball and One Piece are very good examples of my argument. This is how Marvel should grow their characters to create fun stories that are not repetitive...

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mauled View Post
    I disagree for a few reasons but first off I've always had big issues with The Punisher both in the Comics and in Daredevil Netflix and his own series. He's a murderer and they give the impression he's super cool . I have big moral issues with that.

    Second I disagree because the Kingpin in Netflix Daredevil is super popular amd truly great character and he has no powers, he's just strong. Whereas all the stuff they did with the Ninjas and Iron Fist etc all fell flat.
    Hell the Joker is the most iconic comic book villain of all time and he has no super power.
    joker is playing on the same league batman is most of the time. Peter compared to most of his villains is like a us marine handling 6 year olds

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