Who should be Spider-Man's MCU Arch-Nemesis? Green Goblin or Doc Ock?

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

So, assuming the MCU Spider-Man films are building up to Peter having a recurring arch nemesis like what Loki is/was to Thor, the question that needs to be asked is who should it be? There are two villains that would classically be the right fit: Green Goblin and Doctor Octopus.

There's cases to be made for both of them. Norman Osborn is probably the most recognizable of Spider-Man's villains and the one who's most classically thought of as Spidey's biggest villain cuz of the original arc surrounding his identity and is the one who has had the biggest impact on the wider Marvel Universe. He was the head of H.A.M.M.E.R. and created the Dark Avengers. So, they could position him as the next big villain of the MCU. In fact, there was quite a lot of talk a while ago that they were going to do just that.

He's also arguably the one who has caused Peter the most personal pain. He kidnapped Aunt May and faked her death, he abducted Peter and MJ's newborn baby (something not followed up on to this day), killed Gwen Stacy, orchestrated the Clone Saga, etc. So, the list is long.

Then there's Doctor Octopus. There has been some consensus that Octavius has taken over from Osborn as Peter's nemesis due to a string of high profile stories, most notably the Superior Spider-Man arc. He was also the one who orchestrated the Sinister Six coming together. He has a list of notable moments fighting Peter as long as Norman's.

So, what do you guys think? Make the case: Green Goblin or Ock? Or should it be Kraven instead?

[your_name_here]

Not sure when it comes to Arch-Nemesis. I can really see them heading down the Sinister 6 route, though.
Would really like to see Norman, personally. He has probably a little more potential than Doc Ock to reach into more MCU films (Dark
Reign etc)

[your_name_here]

Although I would love to see Jason Mamoa playing Kraven going up against Tom Holland. The size difference alone make it’s interesting.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

So, assuming the MCU Spider-Man films are building up to Peter having a recurring arch nemesis like what Loki is/was to Thor, the question that needs to be asked is who should it be?

The reason Loki had that role is because Thor as a character doesn't have a list of great rogues, at least at the time that the first Thor movies and Avengers 1 came (Thor 1 came out in 2011, Avengers in 2012, and Dark World in 2013). Jason Aaron's run which began in 2013 actually did introduce and revive the Non-Loki rogues of Thor, including Gorr the God Butcher, who is in my view, Marvel Thor's ultimate arch-nemesis.

Spider-Man though has a decent bench of rogues, so there's no real need for his "own Loki" or any such thing.

The truth is that unlike most MCU properties which were either A) Introduced badly (i.e. Ang Lee Hulk, cheapjack Cap America movies and so on), B) Not Introduced at all...Spider-Man has been introduced in an iconic, successful, and for a lot of people, definitive versions in the case of Raimi's Spider-Man 1 and 2. Willem Dafoe's Green Goblin was a major factor in increasing that character's popularity and prominence in the general public and he was far and away the most influential and notable villain of the original Raimi movies. Molina's Otto Octopus likewise is visually a dead ringer for the classic Otto, and the VFX of his armatures is entirely accurate to the Otto of the comics. So if and when Sony/MCU decide to roll the dice with Green Goblin and Otto again, there isn't a lot of room for them to do anything new.

Norman Osborn is probably the most recognizable of Spider-Man's villains and the one who's most classically thought of as Spidey's biggest villain cuz of the original arc surrounding his identity and is the one who has had the biggest impact on the wider Marvel Universe. He was the head of H.A.M.M.E.R. and created the Dark Avengers. So, they could position him as the next big villain of the MCU. In fact, there was quite a lot of talk a while ago that they were going to do just that.

Talk is cheap. Sony decide which Spider-Man toys the MCU can play with. The MCU can't use Osborn however they choose because he's a Spider-Man character and Sony decides ultimately what to do with him.

And anyway, I think the MCU should focus on Doctor Doom as the villain of the MCU, since that opens more doors than Dark Reign Norman.

So, what do you guys think? Make the case: Green Goblin or Ock? Or should it be Kraven instead?

Right now, the plan seems to be to set up the Sinister Six, and you need Otto for that. Though they could go for the Sinister Twelve and have Green Goblin head that (as in MK:Spider-Man). Kraven has one great story to his name, and fame...i.e. Kraven's Last Hunt (some might add Hunted, but that's a homage to KLH), so he doesn't work as a recurring villain.

But truth be told, I don't see a point in having recurring villains for Spider-Man in the MCU. Obviously Tom Holland's not gonna be Peter Parker forever. He's not RDJ and Iron Man in terms of claiming a role for ever. He is "a" Spider-Man, not "the" Spider-Man. Eventually Spider-Man and his story and cast will be rebooted, recast, and rewinded multiple times.

[A Maze Thing]

Doubt they will use any of them since both has already been used in Raimi's Spider-Man movies. And is there really anything that says they're building up to have a recurring arch-villain? Don't think there will be more than one, maybe two, more movies with Tom Holland.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Doubt they will use any of them since both has already been used in Raimi's Spider-Man movies.

Using them once wouldn't disqualify them. After all there are quite a few versions of Joker and Catwoman and Bane, to name Batman's three most recurring on-screen villains since the 80s. All Nolan did was use the iconic ones and introduce ones people hadn't seen like Scarecrow, Ra's Al Ghul, Talia. Now Matt Reeves can bring Penguin back for the first time since Danny DeVito's turn in Batman Returns. And eventually Riddler since Jim Carrey (albeit I do hope they deal with Clayface and Man-Bat, Bat's two major villains who haven't appeared yet).

There has to be a balance between Batman Rogues and say Superman Rogues (where across 7 movies featuring Superman in the title and in a lead role, only 1 of them didn't use Luthor or Zod as the main villain). Batman movies use and reuse really big iconic ones while also introducing new and unknown villains into the mix.

SO I think you can bring back the Green Goblin and Dr. Octopus certainly. In the case of Dr. Octopus you can deal with the Sinister Six stuff, the Master-Planner stuff, and likewise The Owl/Octopus War, I think Peter going to an edge and ripping the arms off Ock's body is something audiences will love to see.

Superior Spider-Man will be hard to impossible to pull off by comparison. For one thing it doesn't lend itself well as a "first Spidey-Ock story" and if you want to commit to more than one movie with one villain that makes it hard for the marketing/PR, and second to make that movie work, you would need to promote the idea that the Peter we see for an entire movie is really Ock in his body, and there won't be a real market for that kind of stunt. Likewise, the story rips off KLH, so just adapt that, and the idea of a villain taking a hero's identity is more of a Chameleon thing.

KLH already has a template for adaptation in something like Nolan's Dark Knight Rises. That movie has Batman in the first half, then missing in the second half before coming back in the third. You can use a model like that for KLH the movie. Where Kraven defeats Spider-Man in the first act and buries him, and then takes his identity for the entirety of the middle act, and Peter getting out of the coffin is his version of Batman getting out of the pit. One cool thing would be to intersperse Peter's dreams and nightmares and you the audience won't know where it's coming from. So you build suspense and then suddenly we cut to Peter in the coffin and then he gets out of the coffin, as in Kill Bill 2 where Uma Thurman's Beatrix does that.

And is there really anything that says they're building up to have a recurring arch-villain?

Well according to some fans, the guy who bought the Avengers Tower is supposed to be Norman Osborn and apparently there's going to be a big shot showing Oscorp on the side of that tower in the movie in their heads.

[Frontier]

Why not use both? Assuming Holland has enough movies as Spider-Man that you can get through more villains.

The reason Loki had that role is because Thor as a character doesn't have a list of great rogues, at least at the time that the first Thor movies and Avengers 1 came (Thor 1 came out in 2011, Avengers in 2012, and Dark World in 2013). Jason Aaron's run which began in 2013 actually did introduce and revive the Non-Loki rogues of Thor, including Gorr the God Butcher, who is in my view, Marvel Thor's ultimate arch-nemesis.

Loki has always been Thor's Archenemy, and he was the villain that brought the original Avengers together.

[Skullkid]

The reason Loki had that role is because Thor as a character doesn't have a list of great rogues, at least at the time that the first Thor movies and Avengers 1 came (Thor 1 came out in 2011, Avengers in 2012, and Dark World in 2013). Jason Aaron's run which began in 2013 actually did introduce and revive the Non-Loki rogues of Thor, including Gorr the God Butcher, who is in my view, Marvel Thor's ultimate arch-nemesis.

Saying Loki was only around because Thor supposedly had no other villains, shows very poor understanding of both characters, and Thor's mythos in general.

[Jman27]

in terms of the mcu I wanna see that relationship be built up for multiple movies but only if they continue to share the character but I pick Green Goblin first considering he probably hurt Spider-man the most plus I only consider Otto a serious threat to Spider-man due to Slott.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

The reason Loki had that role is because Thor as a character doesn't have a list of great rogues, at least at the time that the first Thor movies and Avengers 1 came (Thor 1 came out in 2011, Avengers in 2012, and Dark World in 2013). Jason Aaron's run which began in 2013 actually did introduce and revive the Non-Loki rogues of Thor, including Gorr the God Butcher, who is in my view, Marvel Thor's ultimate arch-nemesis.

Honestly, I don't think that's the case. Loki is undoubtedly Thor's biggest villain, but he's definitely not his only one. If anything, I think the argument could be made that the Thor movies didn't do enough to explore all of Thor's classic villains. I'm still amazed that, in three films, we still haven't even seen Amora the Enchantress or Mangog. But, who knows, maybe they'll show up in Love and Thunder.

Anyway, back on topic, not all Spider-Man villains are created equal. I think that's the point of a nemesis: it shows how some things, some people challenge the hero more than others. I mean, Batman, like Spider-Man, also has a more than decent bench of rogues. However, if you ask anyone, they'll tell you that the Joker is undoubtedly Batman's greatest nemesis and has been portrayed as such across various forms of media. A lot of that is largely because a lot of the stuff that's impacted Batman the most has been the doing of the Joker.

I don't think there's any denying that Norman and Octavius have done the most to impact Peter out of all his rogues.

[WebLurker]

I don't think there's any denying that Norman and Octavius have done the most to impact Peter out of all his rogues.

Eh, I think there's a fair case that Venom edges out Ock a bit, but mileage may vary.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Honestly, I don't think that's the case. Loki is undoubtedly Thor's biggest villain, but he's definitely not his only one.

Around the time of Thor 2011, you could definitely have argued that Loki was Thor's only significant enemy. I mean you could say Hela, Enchantress, and Surtur, or Malekith but those were all villains that were tied to Loki in some way or fashion. Hela is his daughter, Surtur, and also Malekith are enemies that Thor needs to ally with Loki to bring down. Enchantress is similar. There's also Mangog and Jormungandr but they're like Doomsday i.e. a monster with no personality, and in the case of Mangog, Thor and Loki once again allied to bring him down.

When Jason Aaron came around, he introduced Gorr the God Butcher who broke Thor in a way that even Loki never did, and who is absolutely not tied or connected to Loki in any fashion. Gorr the God Butcher is the Joker to Thor's Batman, in that he absolutely challenges and questions the very foundation of his being...making him a very classical arch-enemy. Gorr set Thor down a path where he became the God of the Unworthy. Something Loki never could have done.

Then after that you had Dario Agger the Minotaur, who is also not tied to Loki. Aaron also reinvented Malekith in a big way, to the extent that Aaron's Malekith would have made an excellent MCU villain as opposed to the Ecclestone misfire which totally didn't get the whole Fair Folk Celtic thing that Simonson's original had and which Aaron and also Gillen returned to.

I mean, Batman, like Spider-Man, also has a more than decent bench of rogues. However, if you ask anyone, they'll tell you that the Joker is undoubtedly Batman's greatest nemesis and has been portrayed as such across various forms of media. A lot of that is largely because a lot of the stuff that's impacted Batman the most has been the doing of the Joker.

At this point it kind of seems like Joker has become bigger than his original role as Batman's enemy. When you headline a $1bn solo movie that looks set to win big at the Oscars and I think it's good that Matt Reeves' upcoming reboot is avoiding the Clown.

Batman has the advantage of having multiple enemies who can be a villain of a movie. Penguin, Catwoman, Riddler, Poison Ivy (although considering how underused she is, and her now more common status as sidekick to Harley, I think people should consider transplanting her to Wonder Woman or Superman, since she has the potential to be a really major villain for both of them), Scarecrow can all be major headline villains and that's the second tier after Joker and Ra's Al Ghul (usually considered Batman's top two). Not to mention villains who haven't appeared in live-action yet such as Clayface, Mad Hatter, Man-Bat who can also potentially carry a movie, and mastermind types like Hugo Strange who can interface with other rogues and so on (I personally am a huge fan of the Arkham City version the guy who enjoys dissecting brains).

Now I'm starting to think...will the Goblin suit be re-imagined as a demonic Iron Man armor?

How will they connect Otto to Stark? College roommates? Stark didn't like what Otto was selling when he applied for a job at Stark Industries?

At this rate, the Burglar who shot Uncle Ben will be connected to Tony Stark in some fashion.