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  1. #1
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    Default Who should be Spider-Man's MCU Arch-Nemesis? Green Goblin or Doc Ock?

    So, assuming the MCU Spider-Man films are building up to Peter having a recurring arch nemesis like what Loki is/was to Thor, the question that needs to be asked is who should it be? There are two villains that would classically be the right fit: Green Goblin and Doctor Octopus.

    There's cases to be made for both of them. Norman Osborn is probably the most recognizable of Spider-Man's villains and the one who's most classically thought of as Spidey's biggest villain cuz of the original arc surrounding his identity and is the one who has had the biggest impact on the wider Marvel Universe. He was the head of H.A.M.M.E.R. and created the Dark Avengers. So, they could position him as the next big villain of the MCU. In fact, there was quite a lot of talk a while ago that they were going to do just that.

    He's also arguably the one who has caused Peter the most personal pain. He kidnapped Aunt May and faked her death, he abducted Peter and MJ's newborn baby (something not followed up on to this day), killed Gwen Stacy, orchestrated the Clone Saga, etc. So, the list is long.

    Then there's Doctor Octopus. There has been some consensus that Octavius has taken over from Osborn as Peter's nemesis due to a string of high profile stories, most notably the Superior Spider-Man arc. He was also the one who orchestrated the Sinister Six coming together. He has a list of notable moments fighting Peter as long as Norman's.

    So, what do you guys think? Make the case: Green Goblin or Ock? Or should it be Kraven instead?

  2. #2
    Incredible Member your_name_here's Avatar
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    Not sure when it comes to Arch-Nemesis. I can really see them heading down the Sinister 6 route, though.
    Would really like to see Norman, personally. He has probably a little more potential than Doc Ock to reach into more MCU films (Dark
    Reign etc)

  3. #3
    Incredible Member your_name_here's Avatar
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    Although I would love to see Jason Mamoa playing Kraven going up against Tom Holland. The size difference alone make it’s interesting.

  4. #4
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    So, assuming the MCU Spider-Man films are building up to Peter having a recurring arch nemesis like what Loki is/was to Thor, the question that needs to be asked is who should it be?
    The reason Loki had that role is because Thor as a character doesn't have a list of great rogues, at least at the time that the first Thor movies and Avengers 1 came (Thor 1 came out in 2011, Avengers in 2012, and Dark World in 2013). Jason Aaron's run which began in 2013 actually did introduce and revive the Non-Loki rogues of Thor, including Gorr the God Butcher, who is in my view, Marvel Thor's ultimate arch-nemesis.

    Spider-Man though has a decent bench of rogues, so there's no real need for his "own Loki" or any such thing.

    The truth is that unlike most MCU properties which were either A) Introduced badly (i.e. Ang Lee Hulk, cheapjack Cap America movies and so on), B) Not Introduced at all...Spider-Man has been introduced in an iconic, successful, and for a lot of people, definitive versions in the case of Raimi's Spider-Man 1 and 2. Willem Dafoe's Green Goblin was a major factor in increasing that character's popularity and prominence in the general public and he was far and away the most influential and notable villain of the original Raimi movies. Molina's Otto Octopus likewise is visually a dead ringer for the classic Otto, and the VFX of his armatures is entirely accurate to the Otto of the comics. So if and when Sony/MCU decide to roll the dice with Green Goblin and Otto again, there isn't a lot of room for them to do anything new.

    Norman Osborn is probably the most recognizable of Spider-Man's villains and the one who's most classically thought of as Spidey's biggest villain cuz of the original arc surrounding his identity and is the one who has had the biggest impact on the wider Marvel Universe. He was the head of H.A.M.M.E.R. and created the Dark Avengers. So, they could position him as the next big villain of the MCU. In fact, there was quite a lot of talk a while ago that they were going to do just that.
    Talk is cheap. Sony decide which Spider-Man toys the MCU can play with. The MCU can't use Osborn however they choose because he's a Spider-Man character and Sony decides ultimately what to do with him.

    And anyway, I think the MCU should focus on Doctor Doom as the villain of the MCU, since that opens more doors than Dark Reign Norman.

    So, what do you guys think? Make the case: Green Goblin or Ock? Or should it be Kraven instead?
    Right now, the plan seems to be to set up the Sinister Six, and you need Otto for that. Though they could go for the Sinister Twelve and have Green Goblin head that (as in MK:Spider-Man). Kraven has one great story to his name, and fame...i.e. Kraven's Last Hunt (some might add Hunted, but that's a homage to KLH), so he doesn't work as a recurring villain.

    But truth be told, I don't see a point in having recurring villains for Spider-Man in the MCU. Obviously Tom Holland's not gonna be Peter Parker forever. He's not RDJ and Iron Man in terms of claiming a role for ever. He is "a" Spider-Man, not "the" Spider-Man. Eventually Spider-Man and his story and cast will be rebooted, recast, and rewinded multiple times.

  5. #5
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    Doubt they will use any of them since both has already been used in Raimi's Spider-Man movies. And is there really anything that says they're building up to have a recurring arch-villain? Don't think there will be more than one, maybe two, more movies with Tom Holland.

  6. #6
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A Maze Thing View Post
    Doubt they will use any of them since both has already been used in Raimi's Spider-Man movies.
    Using them once wouldn't disqualify them. After all there are quite a few versions of Joker and Catwoman and Bane, to name Batman's three most recurring on-screen villains since the 80s. All Nolan did was use the iconic ones and introduce ones people hadn't seen like Scarecrow, Ra's Al Ghul, Talia. Now Matt Reeves can bring Penguin back for the first time since Danny DeVito's turn in Batman Returns. And eventually Riddler since Jim Carrey (albeit I do hope they deal with Clayface and Man-Bat, Bat's two major villains who haven't appeared yet).

    There has to be a balance between Batman Rogues and say Superman Rogues (where across 7 movies featuring Superman in the title and in a lead role, only 1 of them didn't use Luthor or Zod as the main villain). Batman movies use and reuse really big iconic ones while also introducing new and unknown villains into the mix.

    SO I think you can bring back the Green Goblin and Dr. Octopus certainly. In the case of Dr. Octopus you can deal with the Sinister Six stuff, the Master-Planner stuff, and likewise The Owl/Octopus War, I think Peter going to an edge and ripping the arms off Ock's body is something audiences will love to see.

    Superior Spider-Man will be hard to impossible to pull off by comparison. For one thing it doesn't lend itself well as a "first Spidey-Ock story" and if you want to commit to more than one movie with one villain that makes it hard for the marketing/PR, and second to make that movie work, you would need to promote the idea that the Peter we see for an entire movie is really Ock in his body, and there won't be a real market for that kind of stunt. Likewise, the story rips off KLH, so just adapt that, and the idea of a villain taking a hero's identity is more of a Chameleon thing.

    KLH already has a template for adaptation in something like Nolan's Dark Knight Rises. That movie has Batman in the first half, then missing in the second half before coming back in the third. You can use a model like that for KLH the movie. Where Kraven defeats Spider-Man in the first act and buries him, and then takes his identity for the entirety of the middle act, and Peter getting out of the coffin is his version of Batman getting out of the pit. One cool thing would be to intersperse Peter's dreams and nightmares and you the audience won't know where it's coming from. So you build suspense and then suddenly we cut to Peter in the coffin and then he gets out of the coffin, as in Kill Bill 2 where Uma Thurman's Beatrix does that.

    And is there really anything that says they're building up to have a recurring arch-villain?
    Well according to some fans, the guy who bought the Avengers Tower is supposed to be Norman Osborn and apparently there's going to be a big shot showing Oscorp on the side of that tower in the movie in their heads.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 01-30-2020 at 10:38 AM.

  7. #7
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Why not use both? Assuming Holland has enough movies as Spider-Man that you can get through more villains.
    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The reason Loki had that role is because Thor as a character doesn't have a list of great rogues, at least at the time that the first Thor movies and Avengers 1 came (Thor 1 came out in 2011, Avengers in 2012, and Dark World in 2013). Jason Aaron's run which began in 2013 actually did introduce and revive the Non-Loki rogues of Thor, including Gorr the God Butcher, who is in my view, Marvel Thor's ultimate arch-nemesis.
    Loki has always been Thor's Archenemy, and he was the villain that brought the original Avengers together.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The reason Loki had that role is because Thor as a character doesn't have a list of great rogues, at least at the time that the first Thor movies and Avengers 1 came (Thor 1 came out in 2011, Avengers in 2012, and Dark World in 2013). Jason Aaron's run which began in 2013 actually did introduce and revive the Non-Loki rogues of Thor, including Gorr the God Butcher, who is in my view, Marvel Thor's ultimate arch-nemesis.
    Saying Loki was only around because Thor supposedly had no other villains, shows very poor understanding of both characters, and Thor's mythos in general.

  9. #9
    Incredible Member Jman27's Avatar
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    in terms of the mcu I wanna see that relationship be built up for multiple movies but only if they continue to share the character but I pick Green Goblin first considering he probably hurt Spider-man the most plus I only consider Otto a serious threat to Spider-man due to Slott.
    "He's pure power and doesn't even know it. He's the best of us."-Matt Murdock

  10. #10
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jman27 View Post
    in terms of the mcu I wanna see that relationship be built up for multiple movies but only if they continue to share the character but I pick Green Goblin first considering he probably hurt Spider-man the most plus I only consider Otto a serious threat to Spider-man due to Slott.
    If we get Ock, I hope we get PS4 Ock and not Slott!Ock.

  11. #11

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    Eric O'Grady
    "I just don't get why you wouldn't want to break the law anymore" --Scorpia

  12. #12
    Incredible Member Jman27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    If we get Ock, I hope we get PS4 Ock and not Slott!Ock.
    Ps4 Ock works well but he only became what he is due to Obsorn
    "He's pure power and doesn't even know it. He's the best of us."-Matt Murdock

  13. #13
    Astonishing Member Mutant God's Avatar
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    Vulture since hes already been featured, he knew Peter's identity before FFH like Osborn at one point, and now could be in Morbius maybe setting up a Sinister Six like Ock.
    Skeeter: Hey time traveling O5 members of the X-Men We don't take kindly to people who create a time paradox around here!

    Bartender: Now calm down Skeeter they aint hurtin nobody.

    Skeeter: No! I wanna know som'in from the "O5" How come you cant go back to your own timeline in the first place and how come when Reed Richards "fixed" the universe you wasnt put back and how come the changes that happn to you dont happn to your present day selves?

    Bartender: Skeeter I dont want trouble

  14. #14

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    Norman Osborn makes a lot of sense as an evil version of Tony Stark.

  15. #15
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    Norman Osborn makes a lot of sense as an evil version of Tony Stark.
    This is accurate, if unfortunate .

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