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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    A huge difference between getting audiences to pay to see a movie outright promoted as entirely from the perspective of a villain, as in the case of Joker, or anti-hero, in the case of Venom...and getting audiences to buy that Tom Holland is inhabited by a smelly villain for the duration of an entire movie.
    Superior Spider-Man is a story done entirely from the perspective of a villain. Joker and Venom were equally considered risky when they were announced.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    A huge difference between getting audiences to pay to see a movie outright promoted as entirely from the perspective of a villain, as in the case of Joker, or anti-hero, in the case of Venom...and getting audiences to buy that Tom Holland is inhabited by a smelly villain for the duration of an entire movie.



    From the perspective of the movie audience, what they will see is Peter acting like a douche for an extended period. There's no functional difference. People didn't like seeing Tobey Maguire's Peter as a slimy abusive sleaze, and that was for basically just a few scenes. They won't like seeing Superior Spider-Man which would be almost an entire movie of nothing but that.
    Just because people hated something in one movie doesn't mean they will hate in every other movie.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 02-10-2020 at 12:32 AM.

  2. #77
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    And the complaints about the symbiote plot in SM3 where about people thinking it was intruding in an overstuffed movie or people just hating the dancing in the street scene.
    People generally disliked "Emo Peter". He's gotten some amount of ironic appeal by Redditors and others, but the audience really didn't like that at all.

  3. #78
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    Superior Spider-Man in general was awful.
    I'm not sure why anyone wants a full movie of that.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    People generally disliked "Emo Peter". He's gotten some amount of ironic appeal by Redditors and others, but the audience really didn't like that at all.
    Considering how he actually acted when wearing the symbiote, "Emo Peter" is a pretty inaccurate description. Not that I think "emo" is actually a valid criticism coming from anyone older than 16.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skullkid View Post
    This just ignores a lot of things about him.
    He was already Spider-Man before he met Tony, he was already swinging around trying to protect people, the only difference is after Peter realizes he could be doing more than just helping old ladies with directions.
    And outside the crossover films he has pretty much been doing it by himself.
    And saying he's entirely motivated by Peter is just a falsehood, when he chases after Vulture's goons after abandoning Liz's party Tony isn't the thing driving him, when he chooses to leave Liz at the dance its not Tony he's thinking about when he chooses the face the Vulture,
    Not really. In the MCU, Peter's suit and almost all of his tech were given to him by Tony when, in the comics, he made all of it by himself. The way they frame it in the movie is that Peter is basically ineffectual without Tony's technology. He may have been "Spider-Man" but he wasn't really a superhero until Tony came along and elevated him. If they really wanted to make Peter independent, they would have had him build his own suit instead of relying on the ones that Stark made for him. And the fact that he needs Tony to "show him" that he can do more than help old ladies kind of proves my point.

    Again, all of his villains so far have been characters who originally had gripes against Tony Stark and the Avengers. Vulture only got into the weapons-smuggling business to spite Tony and the Avengers for "stealing his job." His main goal in the film is also robbing a huge Stark Industries shipment of weapons and tech from Avengers Tower to the Avengers compound. Mysterio also is more concerned with screwing over Tony's legacy by claiming EDITH, a piece of Stark tech that Tony leaves to Peter. And on that note...

    in the entirety of FFH the only thing really on his mind is the fact now his friends are put on a collision course to danger because he was around.
    Uh, you're joking right? Pretty much the whole central theme of FFH is that Peter is trying to live up to Tony and guard his legacy, from reporters asking him if he's the new leader of the Avengers in the beginning to his monologue on the plane about how much he misses Tony to Mysterio's video in the post-credits scene where he says Spider-Man wants to be the "next Tony Stark." The entirety of FFH is basically about Peter grappling with Tony being gone.

    And for all people love to complain about the villains being connected to Tony, its not even all that different than how most of the villains origins are in the comics, where they're pissed at someone else and their beef with him comes from the fact he's getting in their way
    Uh, yeah it is different. First of all, that's not necessarily the origin for most of Peter's villains. For the most part, Peter is the guy who they've targeted. Mysterio for example, has only ever had it out for Spider-Man. Not another character. And secondly, even if they were originally after someone else, that someone else wasn't another costumed hero but a supporting or one-off character.

    In the comics, Spider-Man's villains are his villains. Not people who are mostly concerned with Peter because he is Tony Stark's chosen protege.

    Again, I like the movies, but pretending that they don't make Peter into a legacy character of Iron Man's is just that: pretending. In essence, the MCU has Tony Stark taking the role of guiding force and father figure to Peter that has traditionally been reserved for Uncle Ben.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeitgeist View Post
    Isn't the whole point of Homecoming and then doubled-down on in Far From Home that Peter isn't meant to be the next Stark, but that he should forge his own path? The point of said villains is to show that the way Stark did things had a lot of faults and that he wasn't always necessarily the best guy, and that while he was a positive influence in Peter's life, he's definitely wasn't someone to model yourself off of.
    Not really. At no point in either of those films is Tony portrayed as a bad guy. Vulture and Mysterio are painted as losers who were either too unstable to work for Stark or just unwilling to accept the "future" that Stark was building. And Homecoming could have delivered on that theme of having Peter forge his own path...except not only does he get the suit Stark made for him back by the end of that movie, but he also even takes the Iron Spider suit by the end of Endgame. Also, in FFH, Peter's main life goal is protecting Tony's legacy.
    Last edited by Green Goblin of Sector 2814; 02-10-2020 at 08:04 AM.

  6. #81
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    So basically you just ignored most if not everything I said.

  7. #82
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skullkid View Post
    Superior Spider-Man in general was awful.
    I'm not sure why anyone wants a full movie of that.
    Finally, something we agree on.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skullkid View Post
    So basically you just ignored most if not everything I said.
    No, I engaged with what you said. What you said just didn't really hold up when you actually look at the movies.

  9. #84
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    No, you just ignored what I said, and went on to parrot the same stuff.
    And if you're just gonna continue to do that I see no point in in this.

  10. #85
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    You mean Face/Off? (because there it's a double body-swap and both stories are told in parallel)

    And it hasn't been done in a superhero movie.
    Some film examples would be Freaky Friday, the new Jumanjis and the hit anime Your Name.

    That it hasn't been done in a superhero movie is likely a strength. I do think it's something that works in film, partly because it can be fun to see the Peter & Ock actors switching roles. This also gives Doc Ock a multi-movie arc.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  11. #86
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    Some film examples would be Freaky Friday, the new Jumanjis and the hit anime Your Name.
    You are forgetting GET OUT...which doesn't make the concept so innocent anymore. Life Story being a Post-Get Out story is probably why the final issue's take on Superior castigated the idea of Otto being redeemable.

    The thing about Freaky Friday and Face/Off is that both characters are protagonists. Whereas Superior Spider-Man is Ock's story with Peter playing a small and marginal role, being relegated to a comedy conscience at the start and then at the end, a deus-ex-machina. To do it right, you wouldn't be seeing Peter Parker for most of the movie. You would be seeing Ock played by Tom Holland's body. And conceptually that's a hard movie to sell and make work. Occasionally you would do stuff with Peter in "the sunken place" as it were but the problem is that the story can't end the way it does in Superior with Peter pardoning and letting Ock off the hook with a slap on the wrist. It just wouldn't have worked. Audiences would want the story to end with Peter's Spider-Man beating the stuffing out of Otto's Octopus and humiliating him. That would need to happen in a feature film.

    I do think it's something that works in film, partly because it can be fun to see the Peter & Ock actors switching roles.
    Which they won't be, because most of the story is about Ock in Peter's body and not vice versa.

    This also gives Doc Ock a multi-movie arc.
    Ultimately we will be seeing Tom Holland or whoever who plays Peter play both Peter and Ock, so it's not about Ock having a multi-movie arc, it would essentially be sold on the spectacle of Tom Holland mugging for the camera.

    And again...Superior Spider-Man subtracts the gimmicks of the Chameleon (who has many stories in 616 and Ultimate, where he impersonates Peter and uses the privileges of his identity to worm into his life), and also KLH (the whole Kraven defeats Spider-Man wears his costume to prove himself the "superior"). So if you do those stories, and characters, there's no need to do Superior...and if you do Superior, you are merely doing another Ock story rather than doing a good Chameleon story, and the greatest Kraven story (and top two or three greatest Spider-Man story).

  12. #87
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    You are forgetting GET OUT...which doesn't make the concept so innocent anymore. Life Story being a Post-Get Out story is probably why the final issue's take on Superior castigated the idea of Otto being redeemable.

    The thing about Freaky Friday and Face/Off is that both characters are protagonists. Whereas Superior Spider-Man is Ock's story with Peter playing a small and marginal role, being relegated to a comedy conscience at the start and then at the end, a deus-ex-machina. To do it right, you wouldn't be seeing Peter Parker for most of the movie. You would be seeing Ock played by Tom Holland's body. And conceptually that's a hard movie to sell and make work. Occasionally you would do stuff with Peter in "the sunken place" as it were but the problem is that the story can't end the way it does in Superior with Peter pardoning and letting Ock off the hook with a slap on the wrist. It just wouldn't have worked. Audiences would want the story to end with Peter's Spider-Man beating the stuffing out of Otto's Octopus and humiliating him. That would need to happen in a feature film.



    Which they won't be, because most of the story is about Ock in Peter's body and not vice versa.



    Ultimately we will be seeing Tom Holland or whoever who plays Peter play both Peter and Ock, so it's not about Ock having a multi-movie arc, it would essentially be sold on the spectacle of Tom Holland mugging for the camera.

    And again...Superior Spider-Man subtracts the gimmicks of the Chameleon (who has many stories in 616 and Ultimate, where he impersonates Peter and uses the privileges of his identity to worm into his life), and also KLH (the whole Kraven defeats Spider-Man wears his costume to prove himself the "superior"). So if you do those stories, and characters, there's no need to do Superior...and if you do Superior, you are merely doing another Ock story rather than doing a good Chameleon story, and the greatest Kraven story (and top two or three greatest Spider-Man story).
    It would largely depend on the extent to which a film adaptation covers "Dying Wish" (body swap) or "Superior Spider-Man" (Where SpOck believes that Peter is dead.)

    I do suspect filmgoers could accept a redemptive ending to Ock's story as he learns what it's like being a hero.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  13. #88
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skullkid View Post
    Superior Spider-Man in general was awful.
    I'm not sure why anyone wants a full movie of that.
    Because they liked the original story? IMHO, it's evidence A that putting Slott on the series was a mistake and I do not want to see a movie based on it, but other people feel very differently. Nothing wrong with that.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  14. #89
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    I'd go with a third option and make it Michael Keaton's Vulture!

  15. #90
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    Spider-Man should have a new Arch-Nemesis, which should be:

    The Red Queen


    Mojo


    Nimrod



    Marvel should really let Doc Ock and Green Goblin become the arch nemesis of The X-Men and Avengers. What's past is past. Let Spider-Man encounter villains that he has yet to encounter. Wouldn't be great to see The Inheritors members of The Hellfire Club or Morbius a member of the Morlocks? Marvel should treat their characters like Yu-Gi-Oh trading card games, whereby the players mix and match different cards to create a powerful story...
    Last edited by Darthfury78; 02-16-2020 at 01:40 AM.

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