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  1. #256
    Incredible Member Su_Whisterfield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by houndsofluv View Post
    I don't wanna derail the thread so I'll try to keep it brief. I guess this is what I get for being rambly...consider the can of worms officially opened

    this is where the concept of passing privilege comes in, which is very complicated and nuanced and rears its head very differently under different circumstances: I originally mentioned LGBTQ+ people who hold their queer identity close to their chest to the point where there is little separating them from a straight audience and thus whatever they're peddling can be consumed "safely" by a straight audience. This is just one case of passing privilege at work, and it is interesting in that it is a case where one has the choice of passing or not because it is related to an identity that no one can see, it isn't tangible. There are things that people are marginalized for that they cannot control, such as the colour of their skin or biological attributes that heighten feelings of gender dysphoric , and in these cases this "choice" of passing becomes much muddier: the eye of the beholder can make this "choice" while subconsciously categorizing the individual, and if this individual has "passed" they can then decide whether they will reveal their marginalized identity or not. Its really strange, for me at least, to think of this process in such coldly logical terms because in reality its something very emotional charged but I hope it makes sense

    So, as a distinct marginalized group, mutant passing privilege is distinct from those of other groups. Here it could be argued that its all fictional and it isn't that deep which I'm inclined to agree but I'm already this far along in the post and im gonna see it thru dammit lol. So mutants are an especially interesting case because they can fall into either category I outlined above: those who can pass because their marginalized identity is intangible and those whose passing is made (for lack of a better word, because passing is not and honestly should not be the ultimate goal of a marginalized individual) difficult by the tangibility of their mutation. There're Kittys whose mutation need never be known if she so desires, Kurts who cannot ever pass and Warrens who could pass with sustained effort and maintenance of personal distance (like, having a romantic partner would make it difficult to remain non-mutant-passing). So tl;dr passing privilege for mutants is more complex from the examples of passing privilege we see in our real lives but it is comprised of the same elements - and thus, the comparison I made is fair

    So, the Unity Squad Conundrum. It is noteworthy that Cap selected mutants who fall into the Kitty and Warren categories - Alex can pass no problem and Rogue can pass with sustained efforts. They're also both traditionally attractive but that's pretty much a moot point - almost all protagonists in comics subscribe to North American eurocentric beauty standards and, while characters that do not certainly exist they mostly occupy supporting roles . Even if Kurt had been selected it could still be said that the team only extended invites to traditionally attractive mutants . What is striking to me about Alex's appointment as mutant liaison or whatever his title was is that he fits the "kitty passing" bill to an almost stereotypical degree: he's ruggedly handsome as only a Summers man could be, blonde haired and blue eyes, complete with a corn-fed Boy Scout disposition and most importantly self-effacing about his mutant identity. Call him Alex, don't call him mutant - because he's just like you. Its like he was designed in a lab to be Cap's little mutant soldier, appealing to middle Americans unsure about accepting those pesky muties - I hope it makes sense now how I compared him to the gay man who downplays his queerness to the nth degree in order to avoid alienating a primarily straight populace that just "isn't quite sure about him" and want to be comforted, to know that he's just like them aside from what he does out of their sight.

    The problem with Uncanny AVengers' messaging is that this is never played for satire - we're supposed to see Alex as taking a more thoughtful stance than his crazed, radicalized brother. Rogue wasn't appointed mutant spokesperson and she is consistently portrayed as more rah rah Pro-Mutant than Alex, skewering the decimator herself miss Maximoff. Mutants in other books criticize Alex, notably Kitty herself who refuses to water-down her mutant identity, but she ultimately sides with Cyclops who is still being semi-subtly villainized. Whether this was intentional or not, the assimilators are given the Good Guy treatment. And I get it, identity politics are hard enough in real life, let alone writing about muddily-conceived fictional identity politics. And comics aren't exactly known as the medium of nuance , they're more onomatopaeic. Im not putting any blame on the shoulders of the creators or trying to vilify anyone, But this narrative was still woven in and why not talk about it, dissect it and get to the bottom of why ?

    One last tidbit that I think is interesting is that Rogue and Havok are both a little infamous for the their villainous turns of yore. They've made up for it with heroics and whatnot, but bear in mind that the X-Men are a primarily secret operation - The GP is probably more familiar with Rogue as the girl who put Captain Marvel out of commission way back when. But these are still the people who were chosen as the best representatives of the mutants. The endlessly charming Nightcrawler didn't make the cut, without a spot of ill-will on his record. Is the human-passing element thus the most important aspect of public perception?

    So there's my thinking laid bare. I definitely didn't keep it brief as promised but I'll make up for it by putting a pin in it, at least in the confines of this thread. I hope my initial post makes more sense, SteelInquisitor
    Some interesting stuff there.
    This is where the ‘prettyfication’ of Nightcrawler bugs me. Much as I love some of the pretty, fey, elfin Kurt’s we get, he’s more powerful as a character (and as a metaphor for not passing) when he’s more alien, more twisted and different.

  2. #257
    Incredible Member ARkadelphia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by From The Shadows View Post
    Is that a good or bad thing to you? Just wondering. I remember Cecilia saying similar things and not wanting being a mutant defining who she is. She wasn't too subtle about it.
    It was just an observation. I don’t really feel the need to put a value judgement on it.
    “The Scarlet Witch is the only thing that will scare them. It’s the only thing they’ll respect.” - Hope Summers, Avengers vs X-Men #7

  3. #258
    Astonishing Member AbnormallyNormal's Avatar
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    I have a kinda dumb one but for me as a kid it was SHOCKING and mind blowing - the issue where Wolverine revealed his claws were actually bone and part of his real skeleton

    Related to that, the issue Magneto pulled all of Wolverine's adamantium out of him deeply affected me too. Quite unexpected and gruesome

    Ok I have a third one very related as well - when Wolverine actually pushed his claw into Sabretooth's brain during their brawl inside the mansion

    Hmm my fourth would be probably the early parts of the Phalanx Covenant story, where the Phalanx felt absolutely invincible and like anything mutants or humans or others tried they just recalibrated towards and absorbed anyhow

    Fifth... the part of Age of Apocalypse where the proto-Generation X/New Mutants squad basically went on a doomed suicide mission and several of their members got abandoned to die horribly

    Sixth - that one Wolverine origin graphic novel with him being given the adamantium , the bald headed scientist and all that. Freaking dark and intense read especially when you're like 13
    Last edited by AbnormallyNormal; 05-09-2020 at 12:56 PM.
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  4. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by houndsofluv View Post
    I don't wanna derail the thread so I'll try to keep it brief. I guess this is what I get for being rambly...consider the can of worms officially opened

    this is where the concept of passing privilege comes in, which is very complicated and nuanced and rears its head very differently under different circumstances: I originally mentioned LGBTQ+ people who hold their queer identity close to their chest to the point where there is little separating them from a straight audience and thus whatever they're peddling can be consumed "safely" by a straight audience. This is just one case of passing privilege at work, and it is interesting in that it is a case where one has the choice of passing or not because it is related to an identity that no one can see, it isn't tangible. There are things that people are marginalized for that they cannot control, such as the colour of their skin or biological attributes that heighten feelings of gender dysphoric , and in these cases this "choice" of passing becomes much muddier: the eye of the beholder can make this "choice" while subconsciously categorizing the individual, and if this individual has "passed" they can then decide whether they will reveal their marginalized identity or not. Its really strange, for me at least, to think of this process in such coldly logical terms because in reality its something very emotional charged but I hope it makes sense

    So, as a distinct marginalized group, mutant passing privilege is distinct from those of other groups. Here it could be argued that its all fictional and it isn't that deep which I'm inclined to agree but I'm already this far along in the post and im gonna see it thru dammit lol. So mutants are an especially interesting case because they can fall into either category I outlined above: those who can pass because their marginalized identity is intangible and those whose passing is made (for lack of a better word, because passing is not and honestly should not be the ultimate goal of a marginalized individual) difficult by the tangibility of their mutation. There're Kittys whose mutation need never be known if she so desires, Kurts who cannot ever pass and Warrens who could pass with sustained effort and maintenance of personal distance (like, having a romantic partner would make it difficult to remain non-mutant-passing). So tl;dr passing privilege for mutants is more complex from the examples of passing privilege we see in our real lives but it is comprised of the same elements - and thus, the comparison I made is fair

    So, the Unity Squad Conundrum. It is noteworthy that Cap selected mutants who fall into the Kitty and Warren categories - Alex can pass no problem and Rogue can pass with sustained efforts. They're also both traditionally attractive but that's pretty much a moot point - almost all protagonists in comics subscribe to North American eurocentric beauty standards and, while characters that do not certainly exist they mostly occupy supporting roles . Even if Kurt had been selected it could still be said that the team only extended invites to traditionally attractive mutants . What is striking to me about Alex's appointment as mutant liaison or whatever his title was is that he fits the "kitty passing" bill to an almost stereotypical degree: he's ruggedly handsome as only a Summers man could be, blonde haired and blue eyes, complete with a corn-fed Boy Scout disposition and most importantly self-effacing about his mutant identity. Call him Alex, don't call him mutant - because he's just like you. Its like he was designed in a lab to be Cap's little mutant soldier, appealing to middle Americans unsure about accepting those pesky muties - I hope it makes sense now how I compared him to the gay man who downplays his queerness to the nth degree in order to avoid alienating a primarily straight populace that just "isn't quite sure about him" and want to be comforted, to know that he's just like them aside from what he does out of their sight.

    The problem with Uncanny AVengers' messaging is that this is never played for satire - we're supposed to see Alex as taking a more thoughtful stance than his crazed, radicalized brother. Rogue wasn't appointed mutant spokesperson and she is consistently portrayed as more rah rah Pro-Mutant than Alex, skewering the decimator herself miss Maximoff. Mutants in other books criticize Alex, notably Kitty herself who refuses to water-down her mutant identity, but she ultimately sides with Cyclops who is still being semi-subtly villainized. Whether this was intentional or not, the assimilators are given the Good Guy treatment. And I get it, identity politics are hard enough in real life, let alone writing about muddily-conceived fictional identity politics. And comics aren't exactly known as the medium of nuance , they're more onomatopaeic. Im not putting any blame on the shoulders of the creators or trying to vilify anyone, But this narrative was still woven in and why not talk about it, dissect it and get to the bottom of why ?

    One last tidbit that I think is interesting is that Rogue and Havok are both a little infamous for the their villainous turns of yore. They've made up for it with heroics and whatnot, but bear in mind that the X-Men are a primarily secret operation - The GP is probably more familiar with Rogue as the girl who put Captain Marvel out of commission way back when. But these are still the people who were chosen as the best representatives of the mutants. The endlessly charming Nightcrawler didn't make the cut, without a spot of ill-will on his record. Is the human-passing element thus the most important aspect of public perception?

    So there's my thinking laid bare. I definitely didn't keep it brief as promised but I'll make up for it by putting a pin in it, at least in the confines of this thread. I hope my initial post makes more sense, SteelInquisitor
    This is a wonderful post. There's a lot to chew on and that I agree with. I think we agree more often than not on this very complicated subject. I think Alex was chosen because he got along well with the Avengers, his looks were simply a "plus" in cap's eyes though as you say picking him has uncomfortable implications that Cap really should have thought more about. I think Rogue wasn't an option for this because among the mutants on the Unity Squad she's had numerous quarrels about the subject which wouldn't exactly put her in Cap's favour because he might think she'd say something he'd disagree with without warning while Alex wouldn't and that could sabotage the whole thing entirely. Not that Alex speech wasn't cringeworthy, I don't know what Remember was thinking when he wrote that and it's not like Alex himself isn't above being morally grey himself or acting impulsively.

    As you say mutants are in a category which is more than can be summed up as "mutant looking," and this sort of description is too diluted to make sense when discussing mutant kind or the X-men - when the X-men are known for being super-models, including Nightcrawler. Sometimes literally, both Jean and Betsy have modelling careers IIRC.

  5. #260
    Out Fighting for Peace! AJpyro's Avatar
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    Wasnt Nightcrawler dead during the Unity Squad?
    Le Suck it, Dolphin!

    -God I am so tired.

    SCOTT SUMMERS AND EMMA FROST DESERVED BETTER.

  6. #261
    Boo! From The Shadows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJpyro View Post
    Wasnt Nightcrawler dead during the Unity Squad?
    I don't remember myself.

    Excalibur's early days.

    Last edited by From The Shadows; 05-11-2020 at 09:37 PM.

  7. #262

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    Quote Originally Posted by AJpyro View Post
    Wasnt Nightcrawler dead during the Unity Squad?
    He was when it started, yeah. He came back the following year.

  8. #263
    Boo! From The Shadows's Avatar
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    Some moments involving Magneto, Xavier and Moira. I wish I could find a bigger version of the last one.




  9. #264
    Mighty Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by From The Shadows View Post
    Some moments involving Magneto, Xavier and Moira. I wish I could find a bigger version of the last one.

    If I'm not mistaken, all Claremont's moments… Like someone said, it's soap-operaish. Not that I mind…




    Big enough? (Scan by Ishtar)

  10. #265
    Extraordinary Member Fokken's Avatar
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    That is a page I've never seen before and I'm so grateful it was shared. Thank you thank you. Its beautifully done. Beautifully and convincingly written.

  11. #266
    That's what makes it fun! Ricochet Rita's Avatar
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    I can't believe you have not read UXM #200! 'The trial of Magneto'! You must positively read it, this issue and the whole CC+JRJR run.

  12. #267
    Out Fighting for Peace! AJpyro's Avatar
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    I have not read that far in CC Xbooks but that image has shown up alot.
    Le Suck it, Dolphin!

    -God I am so tired.

    SCOTT SUMMERS AND EMMA FROST DESERVED BETTER.

  13. #268
    Boo! From The Shadows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    If I'm not mistaken, all Claremont's moments… Like someone said, it's soap-operaish. Not that I mind…




    Big enough? (Scan by Ishtar)
    Yes, it most certainly is! Thank you!

  14. #269
    Boo! From The Shadows's Avatar
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    Some Wolverine goodies.





    The guy in the top page didn't either I'm afraid (seeing below the surface).

  15. #270

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    Quote Originally Posted by AbnormallyNormal View Post
    I have a kinda dumb one but for me as a kid it was SHOCKING and mind blowing - the issue where Wolverine revealed his claws were actually bone and part of his real skeleton

    Related to that, the issue Magneto pulled all of Wolverine's adamantium out of him deeply affected me too. Quite unexpected and gruesome

    Ok I have a third one very related as well - when Wolverine actually pushed his claw into Sabretooth's brain during their brawl inside the mansion

    Hmm my fourth would be probably the early parts of the Phalanx Covenant story, where the Phalanx felt absolutely invincible and like anything mutants or humans or others tried they just recalibrated towards and absorbed anyhow

    Fifth... the part of Age of Apocalypse where the proto-Generation X/New Mutants squad basically went on a doomed suicide mission and several of their members got abandoned to die horribly

    Sixth - that one Wolverine origin graphic novel with him being given the adamantium , the bald headed scientist and all that. Freaking dark and intense read especially when you're like 13
    That's not Wolverine Origin, that's Weapon X. Might as well stop trolling because not everything is World War TRAGIC and it seems always generic because I have seen better.
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