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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Why not? I think it is a very good thing. 80 years later and we still have new stories to tell with these characters in their peak.
    A lot of those new stories rely on the progression of time for someone.

    And arguably, peak Batman stories have always occurred when things are allowed to change.

    Now, some of those changes were lateral, and didn’t rely on time shifts so much as simply injecting some new element into the story that could be removed eventually - changing the setting with NML, taking off the Joker’s face - but others very much rely on allowing time to change - the ability to contrast in different stories between a a young, reckless, and raw Batman, and older, veteran campaigner with a different “fermentation” to his anger, bitterness, and brief moments of joy, to Joker being the threat of all threats, to the entire element of Batman being a master teacher and creator of other heroes.

    Now, I can see why people don’t want to ever contemplate Bruce Wayne retiring, and may have gotten nervous when Morrison brought him back but wanted Dick to remain in the costume as well, or why people might feel like Batfamily members from Tim on back are extraneous (though I firmly believe they’re wrong ).

    But I also don’t believe anyone really just wants to go back to the Silver Age status quo where Batman is static and stagnant, and villains stick to repetitive formulas in appearance, and nothing ever changes.

    People want some kind of freshness, bold new flavors, and just plain “new stories,” and the Batfamily... and the passage of *some* amount of time guarantees that.

    There can be too much time passages, and there can be too much expansion... but honestly, as long as there’s a stable of writers capable of writing books people will buy based off of whatever scenario they give to Batman... there should be no restrictures on how old Batman and his sidekicks can be.

    Whatever works now, works now.

    Old man Bruce with a kid named Terry in the Batsuit? If it’s selling, keep printing it.

    Young Bruce only aligned with Alfred? If it’s selling, keep printing it.

    Dick and Bruce sharing the Bat-mantle? If it’s selling, keep printing it

    Dick, Tim, and Jason all dealing with Damian, while Steph and Cass interact with Babs, and while the Birds Of Prey are doing their thing?

    If it’s selling, keep printing it.

    And you could do all of those at the same time. There’s nothing to keep books from skipping around whatever era a writer has a plan for.

    About the only thing I’d say is that editorial shouldn’t end a book or status quo early out of their own fears, or keep a system running longer than necessary. The first volume of Azrael eventually outlived its purpose, and lasted a bit too long; it would have been better to put Jean-Paul Valley aside rather than drag him through another dozen issues so that he had to be killed off. Similarly, cutting off and killing the Batman Inc. era was a mistake.
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  2. #77
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by docmidnite View Post
    Like I said before, If you age Bruce and his generation to retirement, seniors age, and eventually death, then eventually you're going to have to do the same thing with Dick and his generation, then Tim and his generation, then Damian and his generation, then the generation after that, the generation after that and so on and so on...

    In my opinion fans might say they want characters to actually age like normal people. But what they really want is the original character aged so their favorite legacy character can have all of the focus because I have no doubt that if you aged Dick to retirement age, seniors age and eventually death with someone completely new permanently replacing Dick as Nightwing in say, his mid-40's, Nightwing's fans would be outraged.
    Yeah, you did say. I don't want to sound mean or unpolite, but you just said these very same words last page (or, well, technically two pages ago when my post is published in page 6). What's the point (Edit: of repeating the post I mean)? Some of us even replied you O.o. Edit: I mean, are you trying to specifically discuss some detail in your post that we missed?
    Last edited by Zaresh; 02-03-2020 at 05:06 PM. Reason: better words, better English, hopefully
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  3. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by docmidnite View Post
    Exactly. If you age Bruce and his generation to retirement, seniors age, and eventually death, then eventually you're going to have to do the same thing with Dick and his generation, then Tim and his generation, then Damian and his generation, then the generation after that, the generation after that and so on and so on...

    In my opinion fans might say they want characters to actually age like normal people. But what they really want is the original character aged so their favorite legacy character can have all of the focus because I have no doubt that if you aged Dick to retirement age, seniors age and eventually death with someone new permanently replacing Dick as Nightwing in his mid-40's, Nightwing's fans would be outraged.
    I disagree heavily, because this is exactly what I want. There is clearly not enough room for every DC character to exist at once. If DC wants me to move on from Dick, they should end Dick's story in a satisfying way and just move on. I'd happily read about Tim as Batman if Bruce and Dick eventually retire, but I definitely wouldn't read Batman when Dick and the Nightwing book is relegated to some third-string creative team when Bruce is Batman.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grayson - The Dark Heir View Post
    I disagree heavily, because this is exactly what I want. There is clearly not enough room for every DC character to exist at once. If DC wants me to move on from Dick, they should end Dick's story in a satisfying way and just move on. I'd happily read about Tim as Batman if Bruce and Dick eventually retire, but I definitely wouldn't read Batman when Dick and the Nightwing book is relegated to some third-string creative team when Bruce is Batman.
    Agreed. I think most Grayson fans wouldn't mind him retiring, provided the character actually gets used to his full potential and his story is told in a satisfying manner. I think this is something we might get to see in the Young Justice cartoon if it gets that far, as its cast seems to be ageing in real time.

  5. #80
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    I’ve been thinking for a few years that it might be wise to restructure DC’s “family” lines in overlapping “seasons.”

    Share writers for multiple characters, but also give those characters a break between storyarcs.

    That way, if someone has, say one or two good Nightwing stories, they can tell them over two years, and not have to scramble for filler arcs, and if they have an idea for a Orphan and Spoiler story, they can do that in the same timespan.
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  6. #81
    Mighty Member WonderNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    I’ve been thinking for a few years that it might be wise to restructure DC’s “family” lines in overlapping “seasons.”

    Share writers for multiple characters, but also give those characters a break between storyarcs.

    That way, if someone has, say one or two good Nightwing stories, they can tell them over two years, and not have to scramble for filler arcs, and if they have an idea for a Orphan and Spoiler story, they can do that in the same timespan.
    Well I believe DC should change their editorial offices form "family book" like batman and superman to "genre based books" like Syfi, fantasy, espionage and street vigilante.

  7. #82
    Mighty Member LordMikel's Avatar
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    I'm going to agree with those who says Dick Greyson is primarily known as Robin and not Nightwing.
    Teen Titans Go - Dick Greyson is Robin (Although when depicted in the future he is shown as Nightwing)
    Lego Batman - Dick Greyson is Robin
    There was a Batman live action show, which had Dick has Robin.
    Granted I don't think I've read a comic book where Dick is Robin, but I do wonder is "We should never have had Dick stop being Robin the DC equivalent to Marvel's comment, "We should never have had Spider-Man graduate high School."
    I think restorative nostalgia is the number one issue with comic book fans.
    A fine distinction between two types of Nostalgia:

    Reflective Nostalgia allows us to savor our memories but accepts that they are in the past
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  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordMikel View Post
    I'm going to agree with those who says Dick Greyson is primarily known as Robin and not Nightwing.
    Teen Titans Go - Dick Greyson is Robin (Although when depicted in the future he is shown as Nightwing)
    Lego Batman - Dick Greyson is Robin
    There was a Batman live action show, which had Dick has Robin.
    Granted I don't think I've read a comic book where Dick is Robin, but I do wonder is "We should never have had Dick stop being Robin the DC equivalent to Marvel's comment, "We should never have had Spider-Man graduate high School."
    As a long time Spiderfan, geting Peter stuck in high school is a painful thought. Painful Max. Punisher levels of Painful. It's a big no for me. It actually hurts me to think how much in a stalemate his story is even now, stuck in his barely 30's. If people want a younger spider, they have plently of them for that kind of stories :/.
    Last edited by Zaresh; 02-03-2020 at 08:59 PM.
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  9. #84
    Mighty Member LordMikel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaresh View Post
    As a long time Spiderfan, geting Peter stuck in high school is a painful thought. Painful Max. Punisher levels of Painful. It's a big no for me. It actually hurts me to think how much in a stalemate his story is even now, stuck in his barely 30's. If people want a younger spider, they have plently of them for that kind of stories :/.
    And 100% agree. I do think aging both characters was a smart choice. Now we just need the guys in charge of doing these shows to realize, "oh hey, we can go with an older version of this character."
    I think restorative nostalgia is the number one issue with comic book fans.
    A fine distinction between two types of Nostalgia:

    Reflective Nostalgia allows us to savor our memories but accepts that they are in the past
    Restorative Nostalgia pushes back against the here and now, keeping us stuck trying to relive our glory days.

  10. #85
    Astonishing Member 9th.'s Avatar
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    That is THE most ridiculous thing I've ever heard, talk about being stuck in the past. Like that's really extreme.
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  11. #86
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    A lot of those new stories rely on the progression of time for someone.

    And arguably, peak Batman stories have always occurred when things are allowed to change.

    Now, some of those changes were lateral, and didn’t rely on time shifts so much as simply injecting some new element into the story that could be removed eventually - changing the setting with NML, taking off the Joker’s face - but others very much rely on allowing time to change - the ability to contrast in different stories between a a young, reckless, and raw Batman, and older, veteran campaigner with a different “fermentation” to his anger, bitterness, and brief moments of joy, to Joker being the threat of all threats, to the entire element of Batman being a master teacher and creator of other heroes.

    Now, I can see why people don’t want to ever contemplate Bruce Wayne retiring, and may have gotten nervous when Morrison brought him back but wanted Dick to remain in the costume as well, or why people might feel like Batfamily members from Tim on back are extraneous (though I firmly believe they’re wrong ).

    But I also don’t believe anyone really just wants to go back to the Silver Age status quo where Batman is static and stagnant, and villains stick to repetitive formulas in appearance, and nothing ever changes.

    People want some kind of freshness, bold new flavors, and just plain “new stories,” and the Batfamily... and the passage of *some* amount of time guarantees that.

    There can be too much time passages, and there can be too much expansion... but honestly, as long as there’s a stable of writers capable of writing books people will buy based off of whatever scenario they give to Batman... there should be no restrictures on how old Batman and his sidekicks can be.

    Whatever works now, works now.

    Old man Bruce with a kid named Terry in the Batsuit? If it’s selling, keep printing it.

    Young Bruce only aligned with Alfred? If it’s selling, keep printing it.

    Dick and Bruce sharing the Bat-mantle? If it’s selling, keep printing it

    Dick, Tim, and Jason all dealing with Damian, while Steph and Cass interact with Babs, and while the Birds Of Prey are doing their thing?

    If it’s selling, keep printing it.

    And you could do all of those at the same time. There’s nothing to keep books from skipping around whatever era a writer has a plan for.

    About the only thing I’d say is that editorial shouldn’t end a book or status quo early out of their own fears, or keep a system running longer than necessary. The first volume of Azrael eventually outlived its purpose, and lasted a bit too long; it would have been better to put Jean-Paul Valley aside rather than drag him through another dozen issues so that he had to be killed off. Similarly, cutting off and killing the Batman Inc. era was a mistake.
    Let's agree to disagree, strongly. I'm not pro crazy "natural" progression for iconic characters meant to last beyond me, and I never will be. It's not a good idea, and only invites the inevitable need to reboot things to get back to where these things need to be.

  12. #87
    Astonishing Member sifighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Let's agree to disagree, strongly. I'm not pro crazy "natural" progression for iconic characters meant to last beyond me, and I never will be. It's not a good idea, and only invites the inevitable need to reboot things to get back to where these things need to be.
    And to that I would say with all sincerity that because you are probably right and I can understand your reasoning, that for so long as you read comics I hope that you will always be able to find a Batman book that you enjoy...it’s corny on my end I know but I wanted to throw in some positivity of my own.
    "It's fun and it's cool, so that's all that matters. It's what comics are for, Duh."
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  13. #88
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    Dick growing up was an ingenious decision only because it allowed the story of Batman to move forward. It introduced the passage of time and the concept of sequential, narrative storytelling to the Batman universe. Every story arc ever, from Knightfall to No Man's Land to Morrison's run, as well as all the subsequent Robins and additions to the supporting cast - would never have happened if Dick wasn't allowed to grow up. We would still be doing done-in-one stories with no character development or story progression. In fact, I believe Batman #217 was the first Batman comic ever where the narrative continued directly into another issue.

    It's also why Batman consistenly keeps his continuity with each reboot, whereas other DC franchises tend to have their history ripped away and reset to the status quo so often. People genuinely care about the ongoing story of Batman's life that started with Dick leaving for college.

    However, I will echo the sentiment that the Nightwing character is ever so slightly overrated.

  14. #89
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordMikel View Post
    And 100% agree. I do think aging both characters was a smart choice. Now we just need the guys in charge of doing these shows to realize, "oh hey, we can go with an older version of this character."
    Yes please!
    This is a signature. It has letters on it, and those letters form words. Words like these. I will not quote anything because I'm uninspired but, I read a lot: I could!

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  15. #90
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaresh View Post
    We have Dick retiring and kind of being replaced as Nightiwng (in a way of speaking; a batboy batman-lite) in Batman Beyond (By Terry) and, I think but I may be remembering wrong, in Kingdom Come. He have had Damian inheriting in a very polemic way his Nightwing's mantle in Injustice. And I think people were fine with it, because it was that other character's story, not Dick's.

    I personally love the idea of BB Dick.
    For all the meaning and how much it cemented their bond in Injustice that Ghost Dick still choose damian as Nightwing I wasn't happy and i still I'm not.


    Stuff like Kingdom come don't matter because they are short contained stories.
    batman beyond is new and still has bruce in sort of active and as batman in the main Universe
    Retiring Dick as Nightwing in the main Universe will piss a lot of people off just like retiring Dick in Injustice did.

    I don't think DDick growing past Robin was a mistake since I find him more interesting as Nightwing.
    Last edited by dietrich; 02-04-2020 at 02:41 AM.

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