Dick growing up...MISTAKE????

[king81992]

A 50 year old Bruce Wayne whose still Batman makes more sense than a thirty year old Bruce who had four Robins and other proteges over the course of a few years.

The argument that Dick growing up is a bad thing because it ages Batman makes no sense and is a crutch writers/ editorial use to justify their terrible creative choices.

A 50 year old Batman being active and fighting crime at a high level wouldn't be the most unbelievable thing in DC comics.

[gregpersons]

If you're reading comics, I agree, but most people don't read comics. For them, Nightwing isn't a recognizable name.

He's not the most famous Bat character (and he's probably less famous than Red Hood, even) but he's definitely not obscure to a comics-only audience. People are extremely literate now with superhero IPs. It's not a niche hobby anymore. Nightwing's in a lot of Batman media: cartoons, video games, toys, clothing, plenty of animated movies...

Honestly, I'd say Nightwing is at least as recognizable today as Iron Man was before 2008 — outside of comic book fans, truly nobody cared about that character before the film. In other words, whether current DC management recognizes it or not, "Nightwing" is an extremely valuable IP, it just has been poorly managed.

[gregpersons]

A 50 year old Bruce Wayne whose still Batman makes more sense than a thirty year old Bruce who had four Robins and other proteges over the course of a few years.

The argument that Dick growing up is a bad thing because it ages Batman makes no sense and is a crutch writers/ editorial use to justify their terrible creative choices.

A 50 year old Batman being active and fighting crime at a high level wouldn't be the most unbelievable thing in DC comics.

We were just talking about this in the Post-Crisis, Pre-52 thread. Modern athletes are playing into their 40s so I totally agree that Bruce should be in his 40s (or even 50s)... he should be "grizzled." The most popular and famous Batman story of all time stars a Bruce in his mid-50s!

Batman shouldn't be beating criminals because he's in such exceptional shape... it should be because he's clever and determined.

[The Darknight Detective]

I've advocated for a while that if DC had phased out Bruce and replaced him with Dick in the Batsuit permanently it would have worked. But the consensus is that Bruce Wayne is Batman and always will be. There just is no way that DC will ever allow, outside of temporary storylines, for anyone to replace Bruce going forward. And to be fair I really can't point to any long-running version of a hero being replaced. Wally is the closest example and DC undercut that that by reviving Barry. We will never get a modern version of the Silver Age where a New Flash, Green Lantern, Atom, … are introduced and Barry, Hal, Ray and the classic JLA are relegated to being supporting cast. Every attempt to do so is doomed to eventually lead to the Silver Ager reclaiming the spotlight as young and vital.

Bruce is just too iconic at this point to be replaced. He's one of the few superheroes whose secret identity is just as recognizable as his code name. Barry, OTOH, wasn't a household name at COIE (though that's slowly changing thanks to the television show and movies).

[Valentonis]

Yea I think people are kinda underselling the Nightwing name here. Older audiences would probably wouldn't recognize him, but younger folks have been exposed to the Young Justice TV show, Injustice, the Batman Arkham games, the recent Batman animated movies, one of the most memorable episodes of the original Teen Titans cartoon, the DCU Titans show, and probably some stuff I'm forgetting. Like greg said, superheroes aren't niche anymore, even heroes that are b listers in the comics still get a healthy amount of outside media exposure.

[Steel Inquisitor]

He's not the most famous Bat character (and he's probably less famous than Red Hood, even) but he's definitely not obscure to a comics-only audience. People are extremely literate now with superhero IPs. It's not a niche hobby anymore. Nightwing's in a lot of Batman media: cartoons, video games, toys, clothing, plenty of animated movies...

Honestly, I'd say Nightwing is at least as recognizable today as Iron Man was before 2008 — outside of comic book fans, truly nobody cared about that character before the film. In other words, whether current DC management recognizes it or not, "Nightwing" is an extremely valuable IP, it just has been poorly managed.

It's embarrassing this is the biggest media event not!Nightwing has to date.

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[Jon Clark]

Bruce is just too iconic at this point to be replaced. He's one of the few superheroes whose secret identity is just as recognizable as his code name. Barry, OTOH, wasn't a household name at COIE (though that's slowly changing thanks to the television show and movies).

But when did Dick Grayson become less iconic? Because DC has never made a move to put Dick back as Robin, but I'd assume most of what cemented Bruce and Batman as iconic would also apply to Dick being Robin. I just can't see an argument for why Bruce today is too iconic to be permanently replaced that wouldn't apply to Dick as Robin in the 1980's or an argument that if they replaced Bruce in the 1980's with Dick the 2020 Grayson Batman would be less iconic than the Wayne one.

[gregpersons]

It's embarrassing this is the biggest media event not!Nightwing has to date.

7bef5cd2b2ed33544c2e67741510437e.jpg

It's insane, right? There have been more Ant-Man movie appearances in the 21st century than Robin or Batgirl.

[The Darknight Detective]

But when did Dick Grayson become less iconic? Because DC has never made a move to put Dick back as Robin, but I'd assume most of what cemented Bruce and Batman as iconic would also apply to Dick being Robin. I just can't see an argument for why Bruce today is too iconic to be permanently replaced that wouldn't apply to Dick as Robin in the 1980's or an argument that if they replaced Bruce in the 1980's with Dick the 2020 Grayson Batman would be less iconic than the Wayne one.

The difference is Dick was less replaced but more upgraded. Now if he had been replaced without becoming Nightwing, then there wold have been a backlash.

[nhienphan2808]

Dick changing was not a mistake. In the timeline that Robin had to "grow up", BATMAN was. In a way, at least. My post from an older thread.

I feel like many people always referenced Golden Age Batman and Robin just staying Robin in regards to Nightwing not able to be what it could potentially be, that it was “a phase”, WITHOUT any context. The thing is, any later Bruce after Golden Age Batman, was simply not that man. Golden Age Batman let Dick Grayson be free to be who he is’ He was able to have fun and go solo, made more appearance than his Batman. Robin back then was big, because Golden Age Bruce was attentive, yet allowed him his freedom. When he was being a kid and rebellious, Golden Age Bruce understood and never act fearful, needy, bitchy or replace him IMMIDIATELY. (i know there are golden Age issues where Dick was “replaced”, but that’s for character moments and study, and they are 1-issue stories where the replacements couldn’t meassure up to Dick) Robin back then stayed Robin because he was actually respected and his own hero.

As soon as the Silver Age rolled around and especially when Bill Finger stopped writing Batman altogether (circa 1965) Bruce started to act like a different character. Under the comic code he was sometimes abusive and emotionally incompetent to Dick. In the Bronze Age, the Bat office boasted that they brought the Golden Age Batman back, but actually they never did. They used a younger, more idealistic and less pragmatic Bruce. (“i want to eradicate ALL crime. I dream about a time when there’s no criminal.” really? ) And Dennis Oneil straight up don’t know how to write Robin. Robin was 1 year into Golden Age Batman. HOW did erasing him and making Bruce act like an ******* to him “bring the golden age Batman back?” I dont see it. Most of the people who believed that lie or believed early Robin really did have no personality or never was his own hero never actually read Golden Age Bill Finger comics. It’s Batman that changed. And those weird Jason origins didnt even bother me as much as the fact alongside it that they tried to make readers forget about the first Robin by replacing him with Jason and others.

It was because of the Silver Age camp and Bronze Age softening that Robin faded away. Dick was no longer secure in that mantle. He was caged and limited under this new Batman. It’s in character that he felt like he had to make a new one for himself. Essencially, NTT Nightwing was the return of the Golden Age Dick Grayson after the camp dragged him for more than a decade, and it was a real return in personality and characterization, more so than Bronse Age to Golden Age Batman like DC loved to boast to us. We would never have the Golden Age Batman back again

[Lee Stone]

My thoughts on heroes and real-time aging:

Assume a hero has a 10-15 year career.
Then if you want to write a story about the character, pick an appropriate spot: 1-2 years in for a 'Year One' type story where the hero is still a bit inexperienced, 3-5 years for the early years where arch-enemies are fewer, 6-10 years where the hero has established him/herself and they have a regular line-up of dedicated foes, and 10-15 years for the 'reflective' journey and thinking of retirement.

You could have 20+ Halloween stories or Christmas stories, but no one's going to count them and say 'How did Batman have 10 Christmas stories in 5 years?'
Probably because some stories can be ignored if the reader doesn't care for them.

And writers should be free to pick what phase or era of a character's life they want to write.
If someone wants to write a book about Dick as Robin, they should be able to, providing it's set in Dick's past.

[Frontier]

A 50 year old Bruce Wayne whose still Batman makes more sense than a thirty year old Bruce who had four Robins and other proteges over the course of a few years.

The argument that Dick growing up is a bad thing because it ages Batman makes no sense and is a crutch writers/ editorial use to justify their terrible creative choices.

A 50 year old Batman being active and fighting crime at a high level wouldn't be the most unbelievable thing in DC comics.

I think past 30 we should just stop counting characters' actual ages.

[docmidnite]

You start aging the characters then when do you stop aging them? There's always the threat that the answer is you don't stop. And I will just never have any interest in that.

Exactly. If you age Bruce and his generation to retirement, seniors age, and eventually death, then eventually you're going to have to do the same thing with Dick and his generation, then Tim and his generation, then Damian and his generation, then the generation after that, the generation after that and so on and so on...

In my opinion fans might say they want characters to actually age like normal people. But what they really want is the original character aged so their favorite legacy character can have all of the focus because I have no doubt that if you aged Dick to retirement age, seniors age and eventually death with someone new permanently replacing Dick as Nightwing in his mid-40's, Nightwing's fans would be outraged.

[Zaresh]

Exactly. If you age Bruce and his generation to retirement, seniors age, and eventually death, then eventually you're going to have to do the same thing with Dick and his generation, then Tim and his generation, then Damian and his generation, then the generation after that, the generation after that and so on and so on...

In my opinion fans might say they want characters to actually age like normal people. But what they really want is the original character aged so their favorite legacy character can have all of the focus because I have no doubt that if you aged Dick to retirement age, seniors age and eventually death with someone new permanently replacing Dick as Nightwing in his mid-40's, Nightwing's fans would be outraged.

We have Dick retiring and kind of being replaced as Nightiwng (in a way of speaking; a batboy batman-lite) in Batman Beyond (By Terry) and, I think but I may be remembering wrong, in Kingdom Come. He have had Damian inheriting in a very polemic way his Nightwing's mantle in Injustice. And I think people were fine with it, because it was that other character's story, not Dick's.

I personally love the idea of BB Dick.

[sifighter]

Exactly. If you age Bruce and his generation to retirement, seniors age, and eventually death, then eventually you're going to have to do the same thing with Dick and his generation, then Tim and his generation, then Damian and his generation, then the generation after that, the generation after that and so on and so on...

In my opinion fans might say they want characters to actually age like normal people. But what they really want is the original character aged so their favorite legacy character can have all of the focus because I have no doubt that if you aged Dick to retirement age, seniors age and eventually death with someone new permanently replacing Dick as Nightwing in his mid-40's, Nightwing's fans would be outraged.

In a way you and Vakanai have a really good point. It would be a futility because we would lose so many characters we’ve already grown to love over decades as they would age and I’m sure it would also make fans upset. Eventually if one was to live long enough we’d see a dc landscape where all the characters we read now would be gone because of age. That part is completely understandable to me, however I can’t help that in some way that can’t be a good thing to leave these characters locked in some forever peak age as history goes by them. But of course that was the lesson of Doomsday Clock that these characters will always change and adapt to keep alive in their modern period so we need to accept that these things will happen. I guess at the end of the day it’s a conflicting thought process huh. I still think at the end of the day though, characters should age up a bit, I don’t expect to ever see in his 80’s(?) old man Bruce outside of Batman Beyond but I wouldn’t mind a slightly older Batman and his cast allowed to grow up, maybe that’s just me but hey a guy can dream.