Dick growing up...MISTAKE????

[Masterff]

Hello,

I was just answering in another Thread
https://community.cbr.com/showthread...ed-Their-Point

and here I found the opininon that letting Dick growing up was a mistake...

I REALLY REALLY REALLY dont understand that...

For me it was the best decision in the whole Comic book business..

1. Nightwing is a cool character, has MANY fans, sold more books for some time than VERY popular JL members.
2. The aging up worked also PERFECTLY in the whole generation: Wally as FLASH, Garth as TEMPEST....
His generation became better as they are aged up.
3. I PERSONALLY like the TITANS better than the JL and I find them also cooler than the JL counterparts:
Wally better than Barry, Nightwing is equal to Batman, Tempest cooler than Aquaman, Donna more likeable than Diana, Roy Harper equal to Oliver...
4. It gave room for new Robins who I really liked (Tim...)

[BohemiaDrinker]

Some people want Batman to be Bruce and Robin to be Dick and that's it because that's the way they like it. It's just that.

[sifighter]

I personally don’t see it as a problem, I like the concept of legacy characters and heroes aging, growing with experience and becoming something new. It’s a reason why I really like the DC universe, and especially the JSA and the Titans and Young Justice.

However if I understand the common issue that I have heard before is that by having Dick grow up they have to acknowledge that Batman is older. If Dick was Robin when he was a kid, grew up and is currently Nightwing in his mid 20’s, maybe late 20’s to early 30’s, then that should mean realistically Bruce is at least in his late 40’s or maybe even his 50’s or 60’s. That in turn asks a lot of other questions and raises some concerns in DC that we won’t find Bruce relatable, especially for younger readers, in which then leads to a bunch of odd questions of continuity and timelines when they try to move Bruce’s age back but still want to incorporate all the robin’s including his now 13 year old biological son.

So at the end of this it’s not really about Dick growing up, it’s the fear of Batman getting old. Personally I’d have more respect for them if they just let Batman age, I mean I’ve seen older Batman in earth 2(pre-crisis), dark knight returns, Kingdom Come, and Batman Beyond so people can accept it and we’ve seen older characters like the JSA still put up a fight so it’s not completely out of the question he’d still be fighting. I’d be personally fine with watching characters age as time goes on and new heroes join the ranks.

[Riv86672]

The bigger Dick got, the more i liked it.

Robin went from Boy Wonder to Teen Wonder to team leader to new heroic identity right as I was growing up. We basically became (young) adults together, and that was a pretty unique experience to have w. a comic book character, as the genre lends itself to sliding timelines and static ages.

It’s a lot more common now to see kids age over the course of a few years, but Dick was ahead of his time on that, and even though it was happening w. the rest of the New Teen Titans, it really stood out w. him.

[Blue22]

Yeah Nightwing, Teen Titans, and adulthood in general were honestly the best thing to ever happen to Dick Grayson. He was already a pretty good character but those last big steps out of the Bat's shadow were what he needed to ascend to greatness.

[Nite-Wing]

There are a lot of bad legacy characters at DC and a lot of them stem from Dick and his generation.

[Jim Kelly]

I wouldn't call it a mistake--that's too arrogant, since there's a lot of thinking that goes into comics publishing and you'd have to be pretty full of yourself to tell the DC folks they made a mistake when you weren't in their shoes. But it's something that in hindsight I wish had never happened.

I see why it was done, because in 1968 DC was trying to get away from what Batmania represented. There had been a big boom for DC in 1966 and 1967, thanks to the TV show and all the merchandising. But as with most booms, that was followed by a bust--and DC tried hard to get away from that campy image of Batman, starting in 1968 which eventually led to Dick now being a year older in 1969 and so he left Wayne Manor to go to college.

And that created opportunities for Frank Robbins, Bob Brown and Irv Novick to do stuff with Batman as a solo character, like he was all the way back in 1939. And Denny O'Neil, Neal Adams and Dick Giordano were soon added as creatives on Batman, as well. That early 1970s period is one of the best periods for Batman comics--or it was for me anyway--even if it didn't ultimately get enough love from fans to boost the sales, which was the whole point in making those changes.

You can see that in the second half of the 1970s, DC tried to go back to where things were prior--since apparently the dark broody Batman wasn't selling so well and we got more colourful crooks and Batman family drama instead.

I think Dick could have stayed Robin forever, if it wasn't for a merchandising deal in the early 1980s that left DC in a bind that they solved by having Dick in the Teen Titans but not as Robin, while Batman adopted another Robin.

So there are really two different issues here. One is the issue of DC ageing up Dick Grayson that happened in 1969. And the other issue is Dick becoming Nightwing in 1984. Both of these bug me. Dick getting a year older in a year of publishing time bugs me because it breaks the laws of DC time up to that point--in thirty years, Dick had barely aged at all and changes happened gradually, then almost overnight he's ready to go to college. Dick not being Robin bugs me, because there's no reason for it other than a financial problem--it was already established on Earth-Two that Dick could be Robin when he was in his thirties and forties. And I don't like code-names and costumes being swapped between characters. I think a character deserves to own his super-hero identity for life.

There are two very different kinds of comics (and stories) that I enjoy. One is where there's a perpetual status quo and nothing much ever changes and the other is a real time world where everything happens as it does in real life. Comic book super-hero comics usually fail to do either and we're in a world where they try to have a status quo with changes--so characters age but they don't age in any way that makes sense and eventually it gets so screwed up that the publisher has to try and fix things and establish a new status quo with new changes.

When it comes to Batman and Robin, I would much rather have a perpetual status quo. But if there has to be change, then I'd prefer the characters to grow and change in real time.

[Sutekh]

For me it was the best decision in the whole Comic book business..

1. Nightwing is a cool character, has MANY fans, sold more books for some time than VERY popular JL members.
2. The aging up worked also PERFECTLY in the whole generation: Wally as FLASH, Garth as TEMPEST....
His generation became better as they are aged up.
3. I PERSONALLY like the TITANS better than the JL and I find them also cooler than the JL counterparts:
Wally better than Barry, Nightwing is equal to Batman, Tempest cooler than Aquaman, Donna more likeable than Diana, Roy Harper equal to Oliver...
4. It gave room for new Robins who I really liked (Tim...)

Agreed with all of this. I got to grow up with Robin becoming Nightwing, and his own character and no longer the Bat-sidekick. He became a man, just about the same time I did, and that made him way more relevant to me than someone who was eternally fourteen or whatever. And I got to meet great new characters like Tim Drake and (post-re-envisioning as the Red Hood) Jason Todd, so it was a double win for me. For quite some time, the strongest thing about DC was that their characters were growing and changing, not just stuck in the same rut for decade after decade, just like their audience (if, obviously, at a much slower pace than us in the real world!). None of this eternal teenager/twenty-something nonsense.

And also with Riv86672 who said, and I'm paraphrasing here, Big Dick is Best Dick.

[SiegePerilous02]

It has its pluses and minuses.

It was no doubt a fresh and exciting idea at the time. But Nightwing as a brand just doesn't mean as much as Robin does. Robin is the identity that makes Dick famous, and the fact that he used to be the original Robin in turn is the main reason behind Nightwing's fame. Since Robin is a unique identity, not anything like "Bat-Boy", it could have survived on its own or with the Titans. Especially in the TT cartoon, Robin proved he could be successful away from Batman.

So there wasn't really a need to give up the identity. All they needed was to give him some pants. Unfortunately, merchandising won out.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

There are a lot of bad legacy characters at DC and a lot of them stem from Dick and his generation.

I'm genuinely confused by this statement. Are you saying that the concept of legacy characters in general is bad or that there are bad ones that were a part of Dick's generation? But also, why would that be Dick's fault?

It has its pluses and minuses.

It was no doubt a fresh and exciting idea at the time. But Nightwing as a brand just doesn't mean as much as Robin does. Robin is the identity that makes Dick famous, and the fact that he used to be the original Robin in turn is the main reason behind Nightwing's fame. Since Robin is a unique identity, not anything like "Bat-Boy", it could have survived on its own or with the Titans. Especially in the TT cartoon, Robin proved he could be successful away from Batman.

So there wasn't really a need to give up the identity. All they needed was to give him some pants. Unfortunately, merchandising won out.

Is that even really true anymore, though? With the amount of media adaptations that see Dick transition from Robin to Nightwing from over the past 36+ years, is it really true that he's most famous as Robin? I mean, he became Nightwing in Batman: the Animated Series and the DCAU, several animated films including Under the Red Hood and Batman and Harley Quinn, Young Justice, the live-action Titans series, etc. Even the Teen Titans cartoon showed him at one point as Nightwing. I think at this point, Dick Grayson might be just as famous for becoming Nightwing and being the first and former Robin as he is for being Robin.

Also, despite not being "Batboy," Robin is an identity that's still synonymous with sidekicks. Its even used as slang in everyday conversation to denote someone who acts like a sidekick. So, being Robin, an identity synonymous with "sidekick of Batman" is something Dick should have shed if he was ever going to successfully establish himself away from Bruce.

[Digifiend]

The merchandise thing is wrong. They solved that by having a new character, Protector, in that ad campaign. Nightwing came about because the Bat books writers wanted to de-age Dick. Wolfman presuaded them to create a new Robin instead, and that's how we got both Nightwing and Jason Todd. The timing is just a coincidence.

https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/New_Teen_...cial_(Keebler)

[Riv86672]

I'm genuinely confused by this statement. Are you saying that the concept of legacy characters in general is bad or that there are bad ones that were a part of Dick's generation? But also, why would that be Dick's fault?

Yeah, Dick can’t be held responsible for what writers who weren’t/aren’t as good as Wolfman/Perez did w. their blue prints.

[Frontier]

I personally think it was beneficial for the franchise and characters, and DC as a whole, that Dick "grew up."

I'm not sure if it would've been a good thing had he stayed a Boy Wonder forever, same for his generation as a whole.

[Digifiend]

In fact, if Dick never became Nightwing, would Crisis have ended differently? Barry died and Wally took over his mantle. Would they have had Wally do that if Dick hadn't already graduated from his sidekick mantle?

[SiegePerilous02]

Is that even really true anymore, though? With the amount of media adaptations that see Dick transition from Robin to Nightwing from over the past 36+ years, is it really true that he's most famous as Robin? I mean, he became Nightwing in Batman: the Animated Series and the DCAU, several animated films including Under the Red Hood and Batman and Harley Quinn, Young Justice, the ******action Titans series, etc. Even the Teen Titans cartoon showed him at one point as Nightwing. I think at this point, Dick Grayson might be just as famous for becoming Nightwing and being the first and former Robin as he is for being Robin.

Also, despite not being "Batboy," Robin is an identity that's still synonymous with sidekicks. Its even used as slang in everyday conversation to denote someone who acts like a sidekick. So, being Robin, an identity synonymous with "sidekick of Batman" is something Dick should have shed if he was ever going to successfully establish himself away from Bruce.

I think it's more that he's famous for both identities, but Robin has been a household name since the 1960s. So I think it skews more towards that. A lot of adaptations do feature the transition, but they are using the recognition or Robin to boost Nightwing. As in, he used to be the most famous sidekick to one of the biggest superheroes ever, and now he's his own man. The connection to Robin is what makes Nightwing a big deal.

Establishing himself away from Bruce hasn't worked 100% though. He only became Nightwing towards the end of Perez's tenure on NTT so most of the best arcs still feature him as Robin. And then when the Titans franchise ran out of gas, he got pulled back to the Bat-office which arguably has done some damage to him along with the success. Doing Batman-lite stuff in Bludhaven is kind of beneath the character, but he's still stuck doing it, and gets pulled into the Bat-family crossovers as just another face in the crowd.