Harley Quinn gets to be a villain and a hero: Fair or Foul

[ngroove]

I am fine with, when on her own title(s), Harley Quinn, the protagonist, is the hero, or at least as "hero" as can get, according to her psyche.

Just as I am also fine with, whenever on another hero's title, such as Batman and sometimes Superman, Harley Quinn can be a villain.

[Otto Gruenwald]

The problem with Harley being a hero is the same problem a lot of X-men villains who made the jump to hero have. You have to scrub a LOT of her history for her to not be in jail to the point that you might as well say she never was Harley Quinn to begin with.

Say she was manipulated. Say she never directly killed anyone. Okay, she still served as the Manson girl to Charles Manson plus by her own volition. She was still the henchwoman to a guy with a 4 digit body count. Even if all she did was help move his stuff and make faces at the hostages that's still enough for her to never be out of a jail cell for the rest of her life.

You have to seriously alter what being Harley Quinn meant for her to get a hero pass.

[Korath]

Ivy? No. But she's an ecoterrorist half the time anyway. Selina? She's a thief. She doesn't go around bashing other people's brains in and hooking up with a demented clown that goes on his own terror sprees. Hell, even the comparison to Jason Todd is way off. Jason may kill, but only in extreme cases. Harley practically revels in it.

The last time she was hinted to be with Joker was in Death of the Family, as far as I remember. I could be wrong of course, but even then, it was pretty clear that Joker used and abused her and that she wasn't actually happy to play the part in his games.

[lucius121]

Ivy? No. But she's an ecoterrorist half the time anyway. Selina? She's a thief. She doesn't go around bashing other people's brains in and hooking up with a demented clown that goes on his own terror sprees. Hell, even the comparison to Jason Todd is way off. Jason may kill, but only in extreme cases. Harley practically revels in it.

This is the problem people who don’t even read the character and then make generalisations, its like me not reading Superman and judging him solely on his appearance in cross overs.

[Agent Z]

As others said, just pick one and stick with it.

This is the problem people who don’t even read the character and then make generalisations, its like me not reading Superman and judging him solely on his appearance in cross overs.

Actually, you have done just that.

[lucius121]

As others said, just pick one and stick with it.



Actually, you have done just that.

Actually that's false equivalence, anyone who says Harley revels in killing has not read her solo title or even her appearances in the suicide squad, it's nothing like what I described.

[jetengine]

She needs to be more like Deadpool. In that --when she turns up-- some of the heroes tell her to eat **** because she's a murderer. They can't though because she's primarily a Batman villain and Batman is reasonably ok with her and we cant have Bruce looking like a Hypocrite about his one rule right ?

[Agent Z]

Actually that's false equivalence, anyone who says Harley revels in killing has not read her solo title or even her appearances in the suicide squad, it's nothing like what I described.

No, it very much is the same thing. I even recall the story you referenced when you did it.

[lucius121]

No, it very much is the same thing. I even recall the story you referenced when you did it.

Very vague and mysterious I don’t recall so please remind me. I’ve never claimed to be infallible so please point it out.

[Agent Z]

Very vague and mysterious I don’t recall so please remind me. I’ve never claimed to be infallible so please point it out.

The Teen Titans/Justice League crossover dealing with Donna's retconned past.

[lucius121]

The Teen Titans/Justice League crossover dealing with Donna's retconned past.

I admit the only Dona Troy I have read is Titans and her few appearances in Wonder Woman. But those are the only books she has appeared in since rebirth. Pointing out a story and not what I said doesn’t really help. The only comment I made recently about Donna isn’t relevant so I’m not sure what you’re even referencing.

[kjn]

Harley Quinn was created as a sad clown and a trickster. Such a character easily transcends the rather simplistic hero-villain split that superhero storytelling originally was based on.

Also, superhero storytelling has nothing to do with realism. It's much more mythological in nature. In real life, Batman would be in prison too.

[Agent Z]

I admit the only Dona Troy I have read is Titans and her few appearances in Wonder Woman. But those are the only books she has appeared in since rebirth. Pointing out a story and not what I said doesn’t really help. The only comment I made recently about Donna isn’t relevant so I’m not sure what you’re even referencing.

You said that Superman and Wonder Woman were always sanctimonious jerks with a black and white morality based on that story.

[lucius121]

You said that Superman and Wonder Woman were always sanctimonious jerks with a black and white morality based on that story.

That was me giving an example to prove a point, how is that the same when I’ve read both superman and Wonder Woman’s solo books.

[Agent Z]

That was me giving an example to prove a point, how is that the same when I’ve read both superman and Wonder Woman’s solo books.

I mean, if you can claim that about them while having read their books who is to say the people who dislike Harley for the reasons they've given aren't also reading her books?