Dicks Generation-Tims Generation

[Masterff]

Hello,

I have to say that I really LOVE both Generations...

I see Dicks Generation as a kind of blueprint how you should develop YOUNG SUPERHEROES, especially if they are PROTEGES...

1.) They got older....

2.) They changed Costumes and Code-Names to become characters on their own:

Robin->Nightwing
Wonder Girl->Donna (Troia)
Red Arrow->Arsenal
Kid Flash->Flash
Aqualad->Tempest

3.) I like their new costumes, Codenames better than the original ones..

4.) They outmatched their mentors or became equal to them:

Wally is faster than Barry
Arsenal has more skills than Green Arrow
Nightwing is nearly as good as Batman is

5.) They have (at least now) a SMALL Team with different, interesting characters who I like and are interesting to read

Nightwing,Donna,Arsenal,Wally,Omen....along with 1-2 others like Bumblebee,Mal Duncan...

This is what I really miss in Tims Generation...and I hope that it will be changed soon...because I really think that Tims Generation can be easily be as successfull as Dicks Generation is..

But in Tims Generation

1.) They are stuck at the same age since many many years...
I really hope that they will finally be able to grow up and they use the Johns Versions as basis for the growing up..

2.) Cassie is still Wonder Girl, Conner still Superboy, Bart has an unique Code-Name, BUT!! it is a Code-Name which he should only use as teenager, not as grown Superhero....

Godspeed would have been a nice Code-Name and Outfit for Bart
For Conner I hope that he gets Black Zero or Flamebird or so...a REAL CODENAME, not only Kon-El or so...

3.)I really LOVED Red Robin outfit and Codename, but I really HATE Drake as Codename and Outfit... I hope that they change the Codenames and Outfits of the whole team..

4.) I also hope that they adjust their powerlevels to become (almost) equal to their mentors...

5.) I really hope that they change the team and reduce them to the 4 Core-characters along with 2-3 interesting, powerful members like Raven, Miss Martian, Aura, Sparx, Static, Blue Beetle....

[Digifiend]

Raven is Dick's generation. Do Aura and Sparx even exist right now?

[Masterff]

Raven is Dick's generation. Do Aura and Sparx even exist right now?

Raven: Yes and No:
PRE-FLASHPOINT: She was created as part of Dicks Generation, but she was then resurrected in a younger body and became so a member of Tims Generation.
Her REBIRTH Version is based more on the NEW52 Version (as far as I understood) and so she is part of Tims Generation in Rebirth..

I dont know if Aura and Sparx exist right now, but thats not a problem...You can easily bring them back...Aura was a really really really cool character with UNIQUE powers..


But anyway it is not really the point of this Topic...I would like to show why Dicks Generation is so loved etc. by many people and Tims Generation has its problems..

[Tzigone]

Raven is Dick's generation. Do Aura and Sparx even exist right now?

Raven is definitely Dick's generation to me. I dislike how she (and Gar) were kept young/de-aged to be on teams with the younger gens. Couldn't even read when Kory was on Damian's Teen Titans. It was just too brain-breaking for me.

I think Dick's generation was basically developed well and allowed to grow for a while. But then it all fell apart. First Donna, with killing off her family and repeated origin-rewrites. But the others, too. Dick, IMO was trashed in the 2000s, and ultimately de-aged, even before New 52. All their kids were killed/removed.

While what DC did with them in the 70s-90s (or at least parts of the 70s and 80s - 90s got rough on some of them) was great and allowing them to grow just as they should. Would love to see it continue with Tim's generation. But it ages the original generation. And that is why Dick got de-aged. And it's why, if keeping the original protege relative ages, it's unlikely Tim's gen will make it past 20. DC tried reworking matters to bring in Dicks' gen later in early N52 (Dick was like 16?) but the audience didn't like it and they back-tracked.

I would not hold up Dick's gen as a successful one, currently. They were, at one point, and it was awesome. But most of them are in the crapper right now. Original proteges - Roy is dead, Garth is MIA as far as I know, Dick and Donna are being very poorly used, and Wally is only recently finished a character-assassinating storyline.

I would like to show why Dicks Generation is so loved etc. by many people and Tims Generation has its problems

Long-time existence is a bonus to being loved, at least on this forum with older fans or fans interested in back issues. Plus they were first - many of the others are inheritors of titles, so will be compared to them or (quite reasonably) viewed as derivative of them. The growth, yes, was a huge factor. Especially since they were around when comics first changed to allowing this type of growth and storytelling. Growing up, too, was a biggie for me. But DC did everything they could to revert that growing up for so many (much to the characters' detriments, IMO), and so I don't hold out much hope for the younger ones to get the opportunity, either.

[BohemiaDrinker]

I love both gens, but I have to join the chorus here: Raven is Dick's gen. Gar is as well, but he was the youngest there and his age fits more on the lines of Jason's. Although decent comics, I think Johns Titans made a disservice to both gens by muddying things up.

[Tzigone]

I love both gens, but I have to join the chorus here: Raven is Dick's gen. Gar is as well, but he was the youngest there and his age fits more on the lines of Jason's. Although decent comics, I think Johns Titans made a disservice to both gens by muddying things up.

Gar's not that young. More half-way split between the two. He was 15 when Dick and Donna were 19 (and Wally and Vic 18) in the early NTT days. And I think he'd turned 16 by time COIE rolled around and Jason was 11/12. I want to say Gar was mentioned as being 16 shortly before Terra died, but wouldn't swear to it.

That is, of course, using 1980s ages. There was some moving around of Jason later (he was seemingly Tim's age when he died). Youngifying of Gar and Raven and Dick. And, of course, super-age-compression of the Robins after New52 started, but now that Dick has been made older, I'm not sure what's what anymore.

[BohemiaDrinker]

Gar's not that young. More half-way split between the two. He was 15 when Dick and Donna were 19 (and Wally and Vic 18) in the early NTT days. And I think he'd turned 16 by time COIE rolled around and Jason was 11/12. I want to say Gar was mentioned as being 16 shortly before Terra died, but wouldn't swear to it.

That is, of course, using 1980s ages. There was some moving around of Jason later (he was seemingly Tim's age when he died). Youngifying of Gar and Raven and Dick. And, of course, super-age-compression of the Robins after New52 started, but now that Dick has been made older, I'm not sure what's what anymore.

Yeah, post-Crisis compresses things. My logic here is that Gar is younger than Dick but older than Tim. So, you know, Jason's age.

[titanfan]

I dont know if Aura and Sparx exist right now, but thats not a problem...You can easily bring them back...Aura was a really really really cool character with UNIQUE powers..

Wait what? She had Magneto's powers. (Or Magenta for DC)

That said, I loved the Ravers run even more than Young Justice.

At least to me, Tim's generation is still so young. Give them time to grow.

[Tzigone]

Yeah, post-Crisis compresses things. My logic here is that Gar is younger than Dick but older than Tim. So, you know, Jason's age.

Ooh, you hit a sore point with me. I hate the notion of Jason as near Dick's age or even halfway between Dick and Tim. Originally, Jason died shortly after an issue when he was shown to be in 7th grade and Tim arrived on the scene a few months later. So they were roughly the same age. Works for me. Later they said Jason was 15 when he died, making him roughly two years older than Tim. Well, there were some conflicting references to have much time was passing in the 1986-1988 timeframe, so okay. But Jason was minimum of 7 years younger than Dick and and a maximum of 3 years older than Tim (with 8 years and 2 years being much more likely). Much more of an age to be Tim's peer than Dick's. Gar is not and should not be Jason's age. For me, the age gap between Tim and Jason can be wobbled a little bit, but there must be a large gap between Jason and Dick. Dick must already be an adult when Jason is introduced at 11-12 years old. The entire idea of Dick becoming Nightwing before he's graduated high school - particularly in a post-COIE context where he was fired - just collapses if he's not a grown man. In a pre-COIE context, it was because he was already grown and working independently and wanted to be perceived as such (really, he already was, but they wanted a a new Robin), and in the post-COIE context, Batman was treating him like a kid and so he went his own way. Either way, he was an adult who wanted to be treated as such. Making him a kid complaining about not being treated as an adult was a terrible idea and made Dick look like a worse character.

[phantom1592]

I think there's a time gap that's really needed for characters to grow. It's a terrible mistake to have them grow too fast. Especially in this 'sliding timeline' world.

Dick Grayson spent 44 years as Robin before changing his name. Roy and Wally Were around 30 years as their original identity... Wonder girl almost 40 years... Whereas Impulse was only around since 94 and went through an impulse/Kid Flash/Flash shuffle before 2006. 12 years with 3 identities is ridiculous.

There is no way that characters in Tim and younger should have 'graduated' by now. That's when 'Legacy' collapses on itself. We start running into the New52 crapfest where have Batman with 4 Robins, 3 batgirls, a Signal and others all crammed into a 5 year window.

[MadFacedKid]

I wouldn’t call Dick’s generation successful. The most “successful” version of the team went away from the legacy stuff. It’s what their cartoon is modeled after and it’s Waid’s Titans.

The Fab 5 get referenced at best every once in awhile to pay tribute to them but it’s usually moved on after the reference

[phantom1592]

I wouldn’t call Dick’s generation successful. The most “successful” version of the team went away from the legacy stuff. It’s what their cartoon is modeled after and it’s Waid’s Titans.

The Fab 5 get referenced at best every once in awhile to pay tribute to them but it’s usually moved on after the reference

Good point... for all their growing and changing... I really can't call them that 'successful'. The 'famous' titans don't even do too much with Donna, Roy and Garth are pretty much non-entities... even when they AREN'T retconned out of existence. Nightwing and Wally are pretty much the only ones that are actually 'successful', and they're getting crapped on pretty hard the last decade. The whole 'new Teen Titan blockbuster generation with Raven, Beast boy, Cyborg, Starfire haven't changed or grown all that much. Just OG sidekicks and pretty much their growth just led to obscurity.

[Digifiend]

Dick Grayson spent 44 years as Robin before changing his name. Roy and Wally Were around 30 years as their original identity... Wonder girl almost 40 years...

Incorrect. Dick was indeed 44 years. Wally changed at the end of the Crisis, which yes, is around 30 years. But you messed up on the other two. Roy was Speedy from the 1940s to the 1990s, when he became Arsenal, so it's actually about 50 years! And Donna was only Wonder Girl from 1965 (when Teen Titans launched) until the Crisis. With her origin destroyed, she gained a new one at the end of the next arc and immediately changed her name to Troia. She was only Wonder Girl for 23 years. Any appearance of Wonder Girl before Teen Titans launched are actually a time displaced teenage Wonder Woman.

[Rac7d*]

I love both gens, but I have to join the chorus here: Raven is Dick's gen. Gar is as well, but he was the youngest there and his age fits more on the lines of Jason's. Although decent comics, I think Johns Titans made a disservice to both gens by muddying things up.

No he doesn’t, gar was 15 at the star of NTT Jason was 12 just taken in by Bruce. Next thing you know Beastboy is 17 with the titans confronting a 19 Jason Todd.

[Aahz]

Ooh, you hit a sore point with me. I hate the notion of Jason as near Dick's age or even halfway between Dick and Tim. Originally, Jason died shortly after an issue when he was shown to be in 7th grade and Tim arrived on the scene a few months later. So they were roughly the same age. Works for me. Later they said Jason was 15 when he died, making him roughly two years older than Tim. Well, there were some conflicting references to have much time was passing in the 1986-1988 timeframe, so okay. But Jason was minimum of 7 years younger than Dick and and a maximum of 3 years older than Tim (with 8 years and 2 years being much more likely). Much more of an age to be Tim's peer than Dick's. Gar is not and should not be Jason's age. For me, the age gap between Tim and Jason can be wobbled a little bit, but there must be a large gap between Jason and Dick. Dick must already be an adult when Jason is introduced at 11-12 years old. The entire idea of Dick becoming Nightwing before he's graduated high school - particularly in a post-COIE context where he was fired - just collapses if he's not a grown man. In a pre-COIE context, it was because he was already grown and working independently and wanted to be perceived as such (really, he already was, but they wanted a a new Robin), and in the post-COIE context, Batman was treating him like a kid and so he went his own way. Either way, he was an adult who wanted to be treated as such. Making him a kid complaining about not being treated as an adult was a terrible idea and made Dick look like a worse character.

If you go by the comics Dick was pre crisis 19 when Jason became Robin at the age of 12, and post crisis he was iirc 21 when 13 year old Tim showed up in A Lonely Place of Dying.

So based on that you would end up with Dick being 7 years older then Jason and 8 years older then Tim (and Jason might have even been aged down by COIE).

And do to Tim beeing there when Dicks Parents died, there is a pretty hard cap on how much younger he can be then Dick, based on Dicks age at that time.

Beast Boys age I had to look up, I think he was roughly 3 or 4 years older then Jason.