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  1. #31
    Relaunched, not rebooted! SJNeal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astro@work View Post

    Wonder Woman's book at the time was suffering from a series of writers who kept coming in and unnecessarily trying to reinvent everything, one after the other.
    I feel like that's still the case, and has been all the way back to Byrne.

    But yeah, Jimenez is aces!
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by astro@work View Post
    I really enjoyed Jiminez's run on the title.

    Wonder Woman's book at the time was suffering from a series of writers who kept coming in and unnecessarily trying to reinvent everything, one after the other.
    Too many disparate stories about seemingly different Diana characters. IMO Jiminez worked hard to pull all the threads and characters into one unified mythos.
    I loved that he made frequent use of Donna and Cassie, and that he pulled Helena/Fury into the fold as well (after a fairly ignored story made the connection in DC Legends).
    Actually this is one of the reasons I don't like the PJ run that much. Sure, John Byrne is guilty of dumping some stuff that Perez established and then putting in his own versions of the same thing--but ultimately I liked JB's changes (and his run followed after Loebs and Deodato, who had already moved away from Perez). The creators after Byrne built on what he established and tried to give a Wonder Woman that respected all of the continuity--Eric Luke in particular. But PJ clearly didn't like anything that was done with Diana after Perez left and he was in a hurry to bring back the Perez stuff and dump everything from every other creator, as much as he could.

    His treatment of Hippolyta in particular really hurt. And it never felt natural--it always felt like Phil or DC execs were driving her story. The worst moment--in writing and art--was when she sacrificed herself (feeling guilty for things that weren't her fault--just plot driven developments she was pushed into by DC) and we had that gruesome scene of her death. Who was that for? It seemed like so much hate put on a character that I loved and enjoyed seeing in JSA.

    To me this was a lot like Robert Kanigher when he returned to WW in issue 204 and completely ignored as much as he could all the changes that had been made after his departure--killing off I-Ching and symbolically dispatching Dorothy Woolfolk in the person of Dottie Cottonman. Then going back to his version of Diana Prince.

    Unless there's some significant reason for ignoring the work of past creators, I prefer it that a new creative team builds on what has already happened in the run. And I feel like PJ just buried a lot of the continuity out of spite.
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    Actually this is one of the reasons I don't like the PJ run that much. Sure, John Byrne is guilty of dumping some stuff that Perez established and then putting in his own versions of the same thing--but ultimately I liked JB's changes (and his run followed after Loebs and Deodato, who had already moved away from Perez). The creators after Byrne built on what he established and tried to give a Wonder Woman that respected all of the continuity--Eric Luke in particular. But PJ clearly didn't like anything that was done with Diana after Perez left and he was in a hurry to bring back the Perez stuff and dump everything from every other creator, as much as he could.

    His treatment of Hippolyta in particular really hurt. And it never felt natural--it always felt like Phil or DC execs were driving her story. The worst moment--in writing and art--was when she sacrificed herself (feeling guilty for things that weren't her fault--just plot driven developments she was pushed into by DC) and we had that gruesome scene of her death. Who was that for? It seemed like so much hate put on a character that I loved and enjoyed seeing in JSA.

    To me this was a lot like Robert Kanigher when he returned to WW in issue 204 and completely ignored as much as he could all the changes that had been made after his departure--killing off I-Ching and symbolically dispatching Dorothy Woolfolk in the person of Dottie Cottonman. Then going back to his version of Diana Prince.

    Unless there's some significant reason for ignoring the work of past creators, I prefer it that a new creative team builds on what has already happened in the run. And I feel like PJ just buried a lot of the continuity out of spite.
    Phil Jimenez actually did an interview where he goes into quite a bit of detail about his Wonder Woman run and how editorial at the time tampered with it a lot. He specifically addresses Hippolyta was treated. Basically it comes down the editors having it out for her for some reason. He didn't even want to kill her off at all. http://www.tcj.com/they-left-me-alon...-phil-jimenez/

    >My original pitch would have been so simple. Twelve issues and four stories and each one did a different thing. Iím always amazed at how difficult we make it on ourselves Ė partly me, partly the publisher Ė because again, weíre a reactive industry. You hired me so letís do this. Iím not here to sabotage your company. I will give you something that is good. But again Ė and Iíve told this story so many times Ė I had to kill off her mother and her mother was a major part of my 12 issues so I had to truncate all these stories because I was losing a character halfway in. Then they werenít going to let me kill her off. She was going to die in a Superman event and it would happen in Superman. What was amazing was that all of the Superman creators were fighting for me saying, shouldnít her only supporting character die in her own book? The Editor in Chief finally conceded, not happy about it at all, and it ended up being one of my most successful issues. Itís funny because I still look back on it and donít understand the fight we had about that. Or the fact that we fought about every issue. I donít know what was happening above him or around him, but boy was that a constant struggle. That having been said, I did get some good material out of it. I read an issue and I was making some smart observations back then about stuff I still believe in and somehow I got it in print. Itís kind of messy and paced strangely, but itís there. Clearly it touched certain people in the way that I hoped it would. So in that weird way it was successful.
    What I find interesting is he says even the superman creative team was taking Phil's side during all this. The editor in chief at the the time was Mike Carlin I believe. What he had it out for Poly I don't know.

    I'll agree with you on Byrne actually quite a bit. I like Cassie. I like he brought Artemis back into the book and probably helped established her as a fixture of her supporting cast. I like the idea of Hippolyta, or another Amazon being active with the JSA if Diana can't because we want her debut closer to the modern day. And I think he overall did right by Donna by restoring her powers she'd lost by this time, and trying to restore her connection to Diana as her sister. I find the actual methods with time travel and the mirror clone-forced reincarnation angles to be heavily flawed and leave much to be desired, but like the intent.

    I disagree about Jimenez burying a lot of continuity out spite though. As noted, He continued to use characters created by WML and Byrne like Artemis and Cassie, or had been brought back into the fold by like Donna or GA Fury.

    Overall I'd say I like the Jimenez run.

  4. #34
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    Actually this is one of the reasons I don't like the PJ run that much. Sure, John Byrne is guilty of dumping some stuff that Perez established and then putting in his own versions of the same thing--but ultimately I liked JB's changes (and his run followed after Loebs and Deodato, who had already moved away from Perez). The creators after Byrne built on what he established and tried to give a Wonder Woman that respected all of the continuity--Eric Luke in particular. But PJ clearly didn't like anything that was done with Diana after Perez left and he was in a hurry to bring back the Perez stuff and dump everything from every other creator, as much as he could.

    His treatment of Hippolyta in particular really hurt. And it never felt natural--it always felt like Phil or DC execs were driving her story. The worst moment--in writing and art--was when she sacrificed herself (feeling guilty for things that weren't her fault--just plot driven developments she was pushed into by DC) and we had that gruesome scene of her death. Who was that for? It seemed like so much hate put on a character that I loved and enjoyed seeing in JSA.

    To me this was a lot like Robert Kanigher when he returned to WW in issue 204 and completely ignored as much as he could all the changes that had been made after his departure--killing off I-Ching and symbolically dispatching Dorothy Woolfolk in the person of Dottie Cottonman. Then going back to his version of Diana Prince.

    Unless there's some significant reason for ignoring the work of past creators, I prefer it that a new creative team builds on what has already happened in the run. And I feel like PJ just buried a lot of the continuity out of spite.
    Eh, IDK I don't think he really brought anything from Perez back to the forefront aside from the Kapatelis women. Others like Kevin Mayer, the guests for the Feast of Five and some Amazons were more brief cameos.

    Otherwise, he continued the post-Perez characterization for Circe that I think was established by Christopher Priest (and included her daughter Lyta), Artemis continued to be part of the main Wonder-family, Donna's nonsense with Dark Angel and Magala were referenced (God help us), time traveling Wonder Hippolyta (ugh), Cassie and her mother of course, Eric Luke's Dr. Poison, transitioned Byrne's Giganta to the more iconic one, etc.

    His death for Hippolyta, which seemed destined to happen no matter what, was executed about as well as it could be. And what little I've read of Loebs run, Phil's Hippolyta was MUCH better than that. The queen got done dirty in the Contest arc.

  5. #35
    Mighty Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Underrated writer for Diana and wrote the WW/Lois book I always wanted to read. I can't say enough great things about his artwork.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    Actually this is one of the reasons I don't like the PJ run that much. Sure, John Byrne is guilty of dumping some stuff that Perez established and then putting in his own versions of the same thing--but ultimately I liked JB's changes (and his run followed after Loebs and Deodato, who had already moved away from Perez). The creators after Byrne built on what he established and tried to give a Wonder Woman that respected all of the continuity--Eric Luke in particular. But PJ clearly didn't like anything that was done with Diana after Perez left and he was in a hurry to bring back the Perez stuff and dump everything from every other creator, as much as he could.

    His treatment of Hippolyta in particular really hurt. And it never felt natural--it always felt like Phil or DC execs were driving her story. The worst moment--in writing and art--was when she sacrificed herself (feeling guilty for things that weren't her fault--just plot driven developments she was pushed into by DC) and we had that gruesome scene of her death. Who was that for? It seemed like so much hate put on a character that I loved and enjoyed seeing in JSA.

    To me this was a lot like Robert Kanigher when he returned to WW in issue 204 and completely ignored as much as he could all the changes that had been made after his departure--killing off I-Ching and symbolically dispatching Dorothy Woolfolk in the person of Dottie Cottonman. Then going back to his version of Diana Prince.

    Unless there's some significant reason for ignoring the work of past creators, I prefer it that a new creative team builds on what has already happened in the run. And I feel like PJ just buried a lot of the continuity out of spite.
    Donna had about one appearance in the Perez run and Cassie wasn't a Perez creation. Helena/Fury wasn't a part of the Perez run. The only things from Perez Jiminez used were the Kapatelis and the Bana. His use of the former is controversial to this day and for the latter he focused on characters that were introduced after Perez.

  7. #37
    Lover of Wonderful Things FutureWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    But PJ clearly didn't like anything that was done with Diana after Perez left and he was in a hurry to bring back the Perez stuff and dump everything from every other creator, as much as he could.
    Yeah, I keep reading all these comments about how Jimenez "respected" continuity, but I remember that he seemed to only respect the elements of the past that he cared about (pretty much Perez's stuff and some of the even older stuff), and he quickly "deleted" mostly everything done after Perez.

  8. #38
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FutureWonder View Post
    Yeah, I keep reading all these comments about how Jimenez "respected" continuity, but I remember that he seemed to only respect the elements of the past that he cared about (pretty much Perez's stuff and some of the even older stuff), and he quickly "deleted" mostly everything done after Perez.
    Except he didn't though. If he deleted stuff, Artemis and Cassie wouldn't be regular features of his run and Donna's various origins wouldn't referenced.

    And although he has a clear love for a lot of the Marston era, he worked within the confines of continuity (for better or worse) to bring them back. Villain Inc came back but they had to reference time traveling Wonder Hippolyta. And the Amazons got their technology back, but it was treated as a recent thing and included two tribes.

  9. #39
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    I love his art, with Perez retired he gives me that 80s Dick Grayson itch when he draws for his book or just doing fan art.
    I haven't read his story.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    I didn't know he became a writer until the omnibus. What do you all think about his art and writing skills?
    Best writer this side of Perez. As good an artist as well.
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  11. #41
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    Love his Art and Writing.wish he could come back to Wonder Woman or do a Troia Nubia or Artemis Ongoing

  12. #42
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    I think all of the things he has to say about Diana in response to these five questions is...just awesome.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    As a Wonder Woman artist, I liked PJ's work. But as a Wonder Woman writer, I can't say I thought it was all that good.
    Storywise, it was just okay. I don't think his run is as good as Perez/Perez, but even Perez's run wasn't that great after Chris Marrinan took over. That said -- I didn't care for Rucka's run either -- and I know a lot of people loved it.

  14. #44
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    The first Rucka run or the more recent one?

    I definitely think the original Perez run suffered when he stopped doing the interior art. He's just such a tough act to follow and it took them a few years to find someone with a similar style or at least a style that seemed to work for the book. I really liked whoever it was that did the illustration on the Pandora's Box issue, which I think was somewhere around the 50th.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by DisneyBoy View Post
    I really liked whoever it was that did the illustration on the Pandora's Box issue, which I think was somewhere around the 50th.
    That issue, #45, had art duties split between Jill Thompson, Cynthia Martin, and Colleen Doran. I like Thompson & Doran's work, but I think the Martin art in that issue was the best.

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