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  1. #31
    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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    "Is this unambiguous personality flaw a flaw?"
    Mega fan of: Helena Bertinelli (pre-52), Batwoman, Birds of Prey, Guardians of the Galaxy, Secret Six
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    If they want to sell these stories as a part of one big story under one Universe, then they need to be consistent.
    I think in a shared universe that's the one area where writers should be allowed some wiggle room. To make everything fit in the same universe, they have to be true to the broad strokes--timelines, physics, established cast of characters. But writers need some artistic freedom to put their own mark on the work. So things like the inner psychology of the characters are matters of interpretation. That's akin to the comic artwork--each artist should get certain details right; however, each artist ought to be free to interpret the characters in their own distinctive style.
    we're all in this together

  3. #33
    Amazing Member E.Marie's Avatar
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    Yes, it's a big flaw and it's been around for awhile. The first thing that came in mind when I read this was Batman being in charge of the JLI. I can't recall if J'onn had taken over leadership yet but I remember him confronting Batman over his behavior.

    While Amazons Attack might not be the best example I remember that taking place during the time where Black Canary was the leader of the Justice League. Yet Batman called the shots.

    Personally I think that this flaw gets taken too far and excused far too easily. I don't mind it showing up from time to time but when it's overdone so much it can get a little annoying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jcady59 View Post
    Except Bruce earned his fellow hero’s trust long before Tower of Babel Just as he has done after, Jason hasn’t earned shit so why should Bruce trust him? If Bruce thought that Jason killed penguin it’s not because he’s 2 points short of being a psychopath it’s because Jason is an actual psychopath who’s killed a looot of people.
    Bruce keeps flip flopping on whether or not he trusts Jason. During The Wingman period Bruce claimed he trusted Jason when he helped the family. Before they even made the no kill deal Batman told Superman he vouched for Jason. He's called Jason to missions several times and Jason even got to defend Kate at her "trail." Jason hasn't broken any of the rules Bruce and him agreed on. Bruce expects Jason to help him but hasn't returned the favor. (If Jason was as mentally unstable as you're suggesting then it was Bruces' responsibility to make sure Jason got help at Sanctuary. But that's getting off topic.)

    Before they made the deal Bruce claimed he asked for help because he trusts Jason. Bruce (and Damian) blamed him for something without proof more than once. Jason even called Bruce out on being mad that he can't control him like the others when he tried to intimidate him at the Iceberg.

    As far as the other bat kids go: How involved was Batman with what happened to Dick's' Titans? The whole Donna Troy might turn evil thing where they broke up the team then had Miss Martian watch them? I remember Roy getting mad at how Dick handled that and mentioning Batman.

    I recall Bruce getting overprotective with Cassandra over Superboy. I know he did some things during Tim's time as Robin that upset him but it's been awhile since I read that run.

  4. #34
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    It's definitely a massive flaw in my eyes, at least in the last few years. And I would be okay with it if DC allowed it to be a flaw to be criticized by his friends and family instead of searching for ways to make Bruce look good after doing something awful.
    Last edited by Ansa; 02-08-2020 at 01:39 AM.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caivu View Post
    "Is this unambiguous personality flaw a flaw?"
    It might be obvious for you, but I know of enough fanboys/fangirls who can't accept that Bruce goes too far in some stories, especially when it comes to trying to control his family members.
    And apparently some people at DC can't accept it either, or maybe they just fear batman-fan backlash, idk.

  6. #36
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    I think in a shared universe that's the one area where writers should be allowed some wiggle room. To make everything fit in the same universe, they have to be true to the broad strokes--timelines, physics, established cast of characters. But writers need some artistic freedom to put their own mark on the work. So things like the inner psychology of the characters are matters of interpretation. That's akin to the comic artwork--each artist should get certain details right; however, each artist ought to be free to interpret the characters in their own distinctive style.
    Sure, but we're not talking about writer's personal quirks, but complete opposite interpretation. Bruce decided to apply Damian to a normal school so he can be like a normal child in one book, and in the other, he forgets his birthday. Bruce went out of his way to bring Damian back to life in a previous story, then he lets him back fighting in the front line again, sometimes alone. This is not just small differences, this doesn't make sense as a story.

  7. #37
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    Batman's need for control is understandable given his childhood trauma so he tries to impose order arbitrarily on a increasingly chaotic dangerous world so it's no wonder he always feels the need to keep some kryptonite or gadget to kick the crap out of superman and the others to feel truly safe in a world populated by superhumans.

  8. #38
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    But the point becomes shouldn't he calm down a bit? He himself is a great threat. So it's a questionable decision

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Sure, but we're not talking about writer's personal quirks, but complete opposite interpretation. Bruce decided to apply Damian to a normal school so he can be like a normal child in one book, and in the other, he forgets his birthday. Bruce went out of his way to bring Damian back to life in a previous story, then he lets him back fighting in the front line again, sometimes alone. This is not just small differences, this doesn't make sense as a story.
    And if you try to make sense of his behaviour it looks like Bruce only cares about Damian when he's gone and Bruce feels guilty about it or as if he only takes care of his son when he feels like it or thinks he would look bad compared to Superman. None of that sounds very flattering.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ansa View Post
    And if you try to make sense of his behaviour it looks like Bruce only cares about Damian when he's gone and Bruce feels guilty about it or as if he only takes care of his son when he feels like it or thinks he would look bad compared to Superman. None of that sounds very flattering.
    It gets worse when you read every Bat related book from Damian's introduction and focus on what the last conversation Bruce had with Damian was. Remember that pearl from Tom King's second annual?

    It's a major part of Damian's and Bruce's storyline, and Damian is shown in all of the Bat books featuring Bruce searching for that pearl to prove to Bruce that their pasts don't define them and that both of them are capable of changing and healing together. Then you have the last conversation between the two of them (which only Jason is present to witness) where Bruce literally breaks Damian emotionally by informing him that he is not, and never will be, good enough.

    Which is referred to by multiple villains in Snyder's run, particularly in his second Annual.

    If you're paying attention, you'll catch that Damian wrote Bruce a suicide note and went into battle knowing he wasn't coming back hence Bruce's meltdown and attempts to bring him back. We're told that it's because Bruce loves Damian, but we're constantly shown that Bruce is indifferent to Damian's welfare and health and the fight to bring Damian back boils down to Bruce prefers Damian dead however there are other forces in the universe that consider Damian too important to stay dead. (Money. Readers who were willing to buy anything and everything with Damian in it and harrassed everyone and anyone at DC and WB in order to have their favorite character back.)

    Bruce is a terrible father and a terrible person. His need to control people in real life is considered severe emotional abuse.

    There's a reason why people loved the Dark Knight Returns and Batman Beyond: once you hit a certain age, you want to know that someone who treats people the way Bruce does ends up alone and miserable. You also hope they realize the error of their ways and earn redemption the way Bruce does through Carrie and Terry.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    Gotta give it to Bruce here he is showing an amazing amount of restraint. After everything Jason has pulled he still keeps him around like some lost puppy who keeps shitting in your apartment. I guess the one time you don't find poop on the floor makes up for everything else though.
    Jason is being a petty little child as always and only doing things that further his own complex about everyone viewing him a certain way.
    How hard is it to say "Its a blank" or "Trust me"
    He does these little tantrums to fracture his relationship with Bruce so much its amazing anyone takes his emotional outbursts seriously anymore. Its just a typical victim complex that he needs to keep himself going.
    If Bruce pulled the casual flex on any of the Robins for failing him like this it would get called emotional abuse but nobody seems to care about them doing the same thing to him all the time. Like saying he's wrong doesn't hurt him just as much

    Not that I don't think Bruce isn't wrong here its just that Jason is being even more dumb as usual
    Bruce is 100% in the wrong here. First of all, this is set during Cold Days, when Bruce is being a full blown sadistic psychopath because Selina dumped him for the hundredth time in twenty years of knowing each other.

    Secondly, he at no point talked to Jason at all about shooting the Penguin, or even paid attention to the fact that at that distance with a real bullet there's no way Oswald would have survived. Nor has he bothered to find out that Jason has reestablished his relationship with Ma Gunn (Jason's actual grandmother) and has just lost her due to Cobblepot, or that Jason just found out Cobblepot arranged for his dad's imprisonment and death. He hasn't talked to Jason for ages and therefore wasn't there to give him much needed support when Jason received all of his dad's letters that, as happens in one's twenties, changed everything about Jason's relationship perspective on his parents.

    Had Bruce been responsible and treated Jason with the same care and consideration that Harley and Poison Ivy receive, or even Harvey Dent, this would not have happened.

    But Bruce, in many universes, has been shown to be violently abusive to anyone raised by him for more than a year.

    It's how he rolls. Unless he wants to have sex with a character (except Talia, who oddly gets treated the same way as the Robins, and depending on how racist the writer is Bruce may or may not be DTF, even Morrison established that Bruce was seriously DTF just not for breeding) or he didn't know them as children then any step out of his rules, especially the ones Bruce himself breaks, results in a beating.

  12. #42
    Amazing Member E.Marie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic Cyclist View Post
    Secondly, he at no point talked to Jason at all about shooting the Penguin, or even paid attention to the fact that at that distance with a real bullet there's no way Oswald would have survived.
    Right, Bruce has to be in control of the situation (ironic as he wasn't in control of his own temper) even when he was offered the help of others. Alfred mentioned that Dick, Tim and others called right after the shooting. Bruce rejects it to handle it himself. The worlds' greatest detective doesn't even try to get any answers from Jason or anyone else. Why did Jason shoot Penguin? Batman never finds out, he never even looks into the case afterwards.

    Remember Bruces' reaction when Jason undid his legally dead status? Batman looked like he was going to finish what he started on the rooftop. He rushes in, knocks out Suzie and insults Jason. Who knows how far it could have gotten if Jason didn't get him to back off. He either was too furious to realize what fixing Jason's legal status meant or he was just trying to intimidate him. Jason does call him out on being controlling but really that has to be why Bruce never officially brought Jason Todd back. Everyone else who died got brought back easily yet Jason didn't. Because it was easier to control Jason when he could threaten him with imprisonment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic Cyclist View Post
    Had Bruce been responsible and treated Jason with the same care and consideration that Harley and Poison Ivy receive, or even Harvey Dent, this would not have happened
    Yeah, it's sad that Bruce never treated Jason, one of his kids, like them. They get understanding and help. And Jason has been trying to make amends for awhile.

  13. #43
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    It's Bruce's best "power"
    He needs to plan and look for weaknesses in everything including himself
    His morality is never in question because his willpower and commitment to being a force for good will never waver
    I mean, as far as Bruce is concerned, yeah it's the greater good. Whether he's actually right about that?

    His plans to take down the League if they go bad? Fine. Mind control and magic and clones and evil alternate reality doppelgangers are a thing. So sure, Bruce figuring out how to take down the League is fair game. Hell, everyone in the League has probably considered this, and if they haven't, they should. Max Lord alone shows why it's important to have counter measures.

    Brother Eye? That's pushing it. Yeah, Bruce got mindwiped by Zee and the League let it happen. That's pretty crappy, but instead of confronting the people who did it, Bruce built a giant spy satellite to keep tabs on everyone, whether they were involved in the mindwipe or not. How is that helping? How is that the greater good? Whole books have been written about the dangers of the omnipresent Big Brother.

    Metal? That's beyond crossing a line. Bruce's bullsh*t attitude resulted in the earth being swallowed by the dark multiverse and nearly destroyed the rest of reality right there. It did break the Source Wall. That is all 10000% on Batman. He refused to share his concerns and problems, because gods forbid anyone be as capable or as smart as the gods damn Batman, and gods forbid that Bruce ask for help. And look what happened because of Bruce's f*cking ego.

    Bruce will always do what he thinks serves the greater good. But that doesn't mean he actually makes the right call. How many horrible things in history have happened in the name of the greater good? Every monster convinces themselves they're doing the right thing. Bruce....his paranoia and need to control everything and everyone around him can be a good thing. His giant mountain of neurosis has helped save lives. But how many has he endangered because of the same character flaws?
    Higher, Faster, Further....More.

    Truth, Justice, and a Better Tomorrow!

    Bridge Four!

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cmbmool View Post
    After reading this article on CBR: Nox ******* VLC , I was thinking about the fact that Batman is a control freak of a hero. I mean his paranoia against other heroes, his disrespect to authority figures and yet whenever his plans backfired on him and those around him: Has he ever apologized to anyone over this ?

    I mean Omac Project and Tower of Babel comes to mind. One could say the events of Identity Crisis give him goo reasons to not trust heroes, but even he takes his need to control the situation too far. Right ?

    Which brings me to my original question: Do you think Batman’s need to control is a flaw of his or not ?

    As Batman fans: Where do you fall within this question ?
    His second biggest flaw is expecting the best from everyone at all times, for them to push themselves as hard as he does.
    Last edited by martinoermand; 02-15-2020 at 02:32 AM.

  15. #45
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caivu View Post
    "Is this unambiguous personality flaw a flaw?"
    Welcome to the post-truth age, where up is down and silence is sound and we're all in trouble deep.
    Higher, Faster, Further....More.

    Truth, Justice, and a Better Tomorrow!

    Bridge Four!

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