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  1. #46
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    I recall Bruce getting overprotective with Cassandra over Superboy. I know he did some things during Tim's time as Robin that upset him but it's been awhile since I read that run.
    I'd have called the way he tried to keep her way from the YJ (not just Superboy) controlling and a hallmark of a abuser - isolating their victims from others. Don't think that was the intent, but with my very tainted lens of Bruce, I do tend to see the worst in his reactions. The thing on Tim's 16th birthday where he deceived him into thinking a member of the family would go evil (via faked message from the future) as a test - that was was abusive to me. Telling Steph Robin's secret identity (but not his own) because he was too chicken to talk to Alfred to find out if Tim was okay was a crappy thing to do, but doesn't cross the abuse line to me.

    Oh, and making Steph Robin specifically to prompt Tim to come back to the job? And it was indicated Bruce did this because he was jealous that Tim had chosen to quit heroing when Jack found out and wanted him to (Jack went far there, but frankly, I can't entirely blame him). Bruce didn't like Tim choosing his father over Bruce, basically. I think. Been a while since I read that bit. Treated Steph like crap, too.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 02-15-2020 at 08:39 PM.

  2. #47
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    It should be a flaw, but more often than not the writers tend to paint Batman as being right all the time.

  3. #48
    Fantastic Member Gotham citizen's Avatar
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    Theoretically Batman should be the hero and the hero should be the positive model of the book, so there is two possibilities: ore the writers are wrong when they describe Batman like a "control freak", or the editors are wrong when they hire the writers who describe Batman in that way.
    So I think it is wrong to say it is a Batman's flaw, because this is a characterization which contradicts the original concept of the character and a large part of his history, we should say it is a writers' flaw write Batman in that way.
    Last edited by Gotham citizen; 02-16-2020 at 01:38 PM.

  4. #49
    Amazing Member E.Marie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    It should be a flaw, but more often than not the writers tend to paint Batman as being right all the time.
    Right. Batman does something and later on the writers excuse what he did or gloss over it. When Damian died Batman treated Tim and Jason pretty bad. When the family is called in they point out what he did (including the infamous scene with Bruce tricking Jason into visiting his death site) and Alfred chastised them instead.

  5. #50
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E.Marie View Post
    Right. Batman does something and later on the writers excuse what he did or gloss over it. When Damian died Batman treated Tim and Jason pretty bad. When the family is called in they point out what he did (including the infamous scene with Bruce tricking Jason into visiting his death site) and Alfred chastised them instead.
    I had not known about that example. It further illustrates a problem I've had in the past, though. Two of them, really. The first is using Alfred as a sort of "word of God" where whatever he says is just some how magically correct even if it flies in the face of all that we've seen. I have significant problem with the deification of Alfred in the modern era. Of this idea that he's somehow always right, just because he's Alfred. His flaws and bad deeds get glossed over. The majority of fans seem to me to very much embrace Alfred in the "always right" capacity to me.

    The other problem is how they have made Bruce Alfred's whole life, his reason for being. It's gotten the point I don't even like him as the parental figure anymore (other media sometimes excepted). It's definitely partially a result of putting him in the father role. Not completely, though. But his relationship with all the others now is subordinate to the relationship with Bruce. Like they only matter to Alfred because they matter to Bruce. Or at least they don't matter nearly as much (amnesia arc hits this, too). It's not like the old days when he had independent relationships with Dick and Bruce, and one wasn't more valuable than the other. It's also somewhat disturbing in other regards. Now he's been there since Bruce was a child. And when he left Bruce, he just went to be Tim's valet (early 2000s) because lord forbid he should have his own life or things he wanted to do outside the "family." I know, I know, it keeps in at least one title, but it didn't really sit right with me (I didn't actually like Tim going to boarding school either, though, so that factors in). His hand and his reaction there is another. Being distraught is so normal, of course, but I don't really care for the notion that Bruce (or taking care of someone) is his only reason for living.

  6. #51
    Amazing Member E.Marie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I had not known about that example. It further illustrates a problem I've had in the past, though. Two of them, really. The first is using Alfred as a sort of "word of God" where whatever he says is just some how magically correct even if it flies in the face of all that we've seen. I have significant problem with the deification of Alfred in the modern era. Of this idea that he's somehow always right, just because he's Alfred. His flaws and bad deeds get glossed over. The majority of fans seem to me to very much embrace Alfred in the "always right" capacity to me.
    What made that scene even more ridiculous was that it also tied into the family still being mad about DOTF and Alfred telling them that they still had their face. Despite one of them almost losing his in his solo. But yeah, their problems aren't dealt with, Alfred just basically guilts them into letting it go to help Bruce. If this was addressed with Alfred gone then I wouldn't have such a big problem with it. But the message seems to be "Alfred held us together now it's your turn Bruce." I'd rather see them all realize that yeah, they all have legitimate issues that need to be solved not ignored.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    The other problem is how they have made Bruce Alfred's whole life, his reason for being. It's gotten the point I don't even like him as the parental figure anymore (other media sometimes excepted). It's definitely partially a result of putting him in the father role. Not completely, though. But his relationship with all the others now is subordinate to the relationship with Bruce. Like they only matter to Alfred because they matter to Bruce. Or at least they don't matter nearly as much (amnesia arc hits this, too). It's not like the old days when he had independent relationships with Dick and Bruce, and one wasn't more valuable than the other. It's also somewhat disturbing in other regards. Now he's been there since Bruce was a child. And when he left Bruce, he just went to be Tim's valet (early 2000s) because lord forbid he should have his own life or things he wanted to do outside the "family." I know, I know, it keeps in at least one title, but it didn't really sit right with me (I didn't actually like Tim going to boarding school either, though, so that factors in). His hand and his reaction there is another. Being distraught is so normal, of course, but I don't really care for the notion that Bruce (or taking care of someone) is his only reason for living.
    I agree. As much as I love Alfred I don't like the idea that he has an unhealthy obsession with always putting Bruce first. I remember Alfred getting tired of Bruce's behavior and called him out for treating the family badly. It's like DC wants to have Alfred be in the right (usually resulting in Bruce being right) but at the same time they have him go to awful lengths and ignore the fallout. Alfred kept the family away from Bruce when he lost his memory and some of them actually thought Bruce was dead for awhile. Why can't we see him away from Bruce with the rest of the family or with his daughter?

  7. #52
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Batman is flawed, sure, but im just gonna say it. Being mean to a Robin isn’t that heinous.

  8. #53
    Astonishing Member batnbreakfast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Batman is flawed, sure, but im just gonna say it. Being mean to a Robin isn’t that heinous.
    Please, try to be more careful next time, Jason.
    Or
    ARE You insane
    What do you think is more effective

  9. #54
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    With Jason? "Don’t shoot"

  10. #55
    Extraordinary Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    With Jason? "Don’t shoot"
    Jason's back-up singers be like;


  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Batman is flawed, sure, but im just gonna say it. Being mean to a Robin isn’t that heinous.
    "Being mean" would be putting it kindly. Tony was "being mean" to Peter in Homecoming. Bruce is about the worst parent in the DCU that isn't an outright super villain.



    Next time you all think Frank Miller is the only one to have portrayed Bruce as abusive to the Robins just remember this scene.

  12. #57
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    Jason's back-up singers be like;
    When you have shot and/or stabbed most of the Bat family, you don’t get to cry victim.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    "Being mean" would be putting it kindly. Tony was "being mean" to Peter in Homecoming. Bruce is about the worst parent in the DCU that isn't an outright super villain.

    Next time you all think Frank Miller is the only one to have portrayed Bruce as abusive to the Robins just remember this scene.
    Ya, honestly that’s not that bad in the grand scheme of horrible acts. He walloped Dick when he was on the verge of a breakdown. What a monster. Let’s forget everything he’s done for Dick and mankind in general. He’s a shit father. Hell if Ric has thought us anything, it’s that Dick is a far more enjoyable person with Bruce in his life lol.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 02-17-2020 at 02:26 AM.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post

    Ya, honestly that’s not that bad in the grand scheme of horrible acts. He walloped Dick when he was on the verge of a breakdown. What a monster.
    And all the other times when he's struck Dick? Sounds like Bruce is really prone to violent mental break downs.


    Let’s forget everything he’s done for Dick and mankind in general.
    Didn't expect to see textbook abuser apologia in this thread but wow.

    He’s a shit father.
    Glad we agree on something.

    Hell if Ric has thought us anything, it’s that Dick is a far more enjoyable person with Bruce in his life lol.
    If by enjoyable you mean "not being punched out by his father" then yes.

  14. #59
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Yes all the other times, not that bad. The tooth punch was probably the worst due to how unnecessary it was. Stop pretending like they are that common, or exist in a vacuum where Dick hasn’t snapped on him. Your using out of context moments to paint Bruce as something he’s not. Dude saves the world on regular basis, he saved Dick from a meaningless life on the streets as a insufferable hobo. Yelling at a Robin from time to time, or even whacking one of them at times when he’s been driven to the brink, is not that bad.
    The Robins can F off if they have been treated so poorly and abused. He doesn’t own them, he’s not forcing them to be around him. Dick stays around the man cause he loves him. He was there for Dick when he lost everything. He gave him purpose, love, and continual unconditional support. He’s not an awful guy like your trying to present him as. For every bad moment, there are 10x as many good ones. For every flaw, there is genuine goodness and selflessness. Let’s put things into some perspective here.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 02-17-2020 at 02:18 AM.

  15. #60
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    It's that bad when he never apologize for said whacking.

    I've lost my temper, I've even punched someone once, in the subway. Do you know what I did afterward ? I got it, even when I had been punched first, and punched a wall, breaking one of my phalanges because I didn't want to hit him more than once. And I've felt terrible ever since. In fact, every time I've lost my temper badly, I've felt terrible and tried to apologize.

    When has Bruce ever reflected on his actions? When has he ever apologized for punching his sidekicks just because he's in a bad mood. Saving the world, being under a lot of pressure... None of it is an acceptable reason for being an absolute jerk. All he'd have to do was say that he's sorry and trying to act to correct himself and help others.

    But current Bruce is so far gone that he can't even show a little bit of emotion until the people he supposedly care about, his family, have stormed out. His biological son is spinning out of control because of his own grief, confusion and aspirations waging with his early education, and he does nothing. No, wait, scratch that. He'll come in, barge orders, take Robin's identity from Damian and then leave him to deal with that. And I know that King cemented the idea that Bruce, in the grand scheme of things, don't give a fuck about the little strays and the bastard he brought home over the years, and that only Selina and the desired child with her matters to him... But that's just one more horrible message.

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