Is Batman’s need to control a flaw of his ?

[SiegePerilous02]

Ya, honestly that’s not that bad in the grand scheme of horrible acts. He walloped Dick when he was on the verge of a breakdown. What a monster. Let’s forget everything he’s done for Dick and mankind in general. He’s a **** father. Hell if Ric has thought us anything, it’s that Dick is a far more enjoyable person with Bruce in his life lol.

That instance would be easier to deal with considering the traumatic circumstance of Jason's recent death if it was an isolated incident. But it's not when we go into later post-Crisis stories and recent stuff like him hitting Dick in that Snyder issue.

It's not ok for Bruce to hit his kids or emotionally abuse them when he does a lot of other good stuff. It's like saying a dude who hits his wife isn't all bad because he saves lives as a firefighter or something. Who gives a **** what else he does? Bruce isn't the only member of the Bat-Family with dodgy moments of characterization or bad behavior, but he's the biggest.

Now, my preferred characterization of Batman is one who IS a good father/guardian/big brother figure or whatever. If I had any measure of control, Bruce's characterization would go back to actually being a hero who cared about his adopted son/younger brother figure that we would want to root for. It's better to hope that DC creatives get their heads out of their asses and remember we're supposed to like their heroes. Instead of bending over backwards to defend this obvious crap the characters are forced to participate in for cheap drama. In which nobody benefits. Because you do it too often, you poison the well and make it a regular part of their characterization. The fact that people hate this behavior from him but don't exactly see it as unusual at this point is extremely disheartening

[E.Marie]

While I do think writers make Bruce too controlling I wanted to find a good example that can be debated about. Back in Nightwing Year One after Dick stopped being Robin and Jason became Robin Alfred notices Bruce working on Jason's belt. In the scene Alfred doesn't like Bruce putting in a tracking device. It's treated like Bruce is going too far. That said I think Dixon might have started the trend of making Bruce too controlling with the Robins.

Under Tomasi Damian is in danger and Bruce tries to find him using a tracker. I don't think we're ever told if Damian was aware of the tracker.

So, when do you think the tracker method is warranted and when do you think it crosses the line?

[Gotham citizen]

When it is used with the purpose to save a member of the Bat-family, then I think its uses is legit; otherwise not.
Actually I think every member of the Bat-family should have some track system with him (even Batman), in order to ask for help when he is in trouble. It would be wise an it fits with the Bruce Wayne's modus operandi, because he is a man who always try to solve a problem before it manifest itself.

[Godlike13]

That instance would be easier to deal with considering the traumatic circumstance of Jason's recent death if it was an isolated incident. But it's not when we go into later post-Crisis stories and recent stuff like him hitting Dick in that Snyder issue.

It's not ok for Bruce to hit his kids or emotionally abuse them when he does a lot of other good stuff. It's like saying a dude who hits his wife isn't all bad because he saves lives as a firefighter or something. Who gives a **** what else he does? Bruce isn't the only member of the Bat-Family with dodgy moments of characterization or bad behavior, but he's the biggest.

Now, my preferred characterization of Batman is one who IS a good father/guardian/big brother figure or whatever. If I had any measure of control, Bruce's characterization would go back to actually being a hero who cared about his adopted son/younger brother figure that we would want to root for. It's better to hope that DC creatives get their heads out of their asses and remember we're supposed to like their heroes. Instead of bending over backwards to defend this obvious crap the characters are forced to participate in for cheap drama. In which nobody benefits. Because you do it too often, you poison the well and make it a regular part of their characterization. The fact that people hate this behavior from him but don't exactly see it as unusual at this point is extremely disheartening

It’s not as common as people seem to think. When it happens there is usually some context, like mind screwery, sever mental strain, or Dick trying to fight him. The tooth was probably the least excusable, because the reason for it was especially dumb. But Bruce isn’t hitting Dick cause Dick didn’t get him his beer. These are out of character instances meant to demonstrate Bruce mental state and fragility at dire or extreme times. My point isn’t about checks and balances, that doing good makes it ok, it’s about overall perspective and using these moments to paint an inaccurate picture about what kind of person Bruce usually is.

[SiegePerilous02]

It’s not as common as people seem to think. When it happens there is usually some context, like mind screwery, sever mental strain, or Dick trying to fight him. The tooth was probably the least excusable, because the reason for it was especially dumb. But Bruce isn’t hitting Dick cause Dick didn’t get him his beer. These are out of character instances meant to demonstrate Bruce mental state and fragility at dire or extreme times. My point isn’t about checks and balances, that doing good makes it ok, it’s about overall perspective and using these moments to paint an inaccurate picture about what kind of person Bruce usually is.

Even if the moments with the Bat-Family aren't as common as we may think, he has actions in the wider DC universe that can be bad. He can be very unpleasant to other DCU heroes for almost no fucking reason, there is the Tower of Babel and OMAC stuff, etc.

I think as broadly characterized as he is as both a character and an icon, it is inaccurate to paint Bruce this way. Or it should be. Basically it's the double edged sword of treating the main canon as gospel no matter how crappy it can get. We're stuck with it in his character history. And some will want to pick at the scab, because while some people would prefer forgetting it an move on, others would want to bring it up and drag it out so he gets called out on it more. It is somewhat hard to blame them considering what DC lets him get away with at times because they love to have it both ways. Which is why I honestly would be ok with a full blown reboot at this point, put the modern Batman out of his misery and get a better version on the shelves.

[Agent Z]

No, the premise of my question is: if the same author can change radically the behavior of a character and his interaction with the others, according to the story he want tell, even if that means contradict what he wrote three months earlier, can we say: «My interpretation of the character is the right one»?
I think in some stories Bruce Wayne (or Batman) acted like the good person (or a true hero) he was meant to be, in others acted like a victim of a post traumatic stress disorder (it can happens if he had some trauma like it was the Jason's death) and in others stories yet he acted like a sociopath and often these interpretations of the character contradict each others.

If he acts abusive in some instances, then he is abusive. That this is contradicted in some stories does not negate that and frankly is not unrealistic when it comes to how abusive people behave. There are days when they are more amicable than normal.

That instance would be easier to deal with considering the traumatic circumstance of Jason's recent death if it was an isolated incident. But it's not when we go into later post-Crisis stories and recent stuff like him hitting Dick in that Snyder issue.

It's not ok for Bruce to hit his kids or emotionally abuse them when he does a lot of other good stuff. It's like saying a dude who hits his wife isn't all bad because he saves lives as a firefighter or something. Who gives a **** what else he does? Bruce isn't the only member of the Bat-Family with dodgy moments of characterization or bad behavior, but he's the biggest.

Now, my preferred characterization of Batman is one who IS a good father/guardian/big brother figure or whatever. If I had any measure of control, Bruce's characterization would go back to actually being a hero who cared about his adopted son/younger brother figure that we would want to root for. It's better to hope that DC creatives get their heads out of their asses and remember we're supposed to like their heroes. Instead of bending over backwards to defend this obvious crap the characters are forced to participate in for cheap drama. In which nobody benefits. Because you do it too often, you poison the well and make it a regular part of their characterization. The fact that people hate this behavior from him but don't exactly see it as unusual at this point is extremely disheartening

For that matter, how many superheroes deal with stress by punching somebody who is trying to talk to them? Not even a villain in this case, but their own sidekick and protege?

It’s not as common as people seem to think. When it happens there is usually some context, like mind screwery, sever mental strain, or Dick trying to fight him. The tooth was probably the least excusable, because the reason for it was especially dumb. But Bruce isn’t hitting Dick cause Dick didn’t get him his beer. These are out of character instances meant to demonstrate Bruce mental state and fragility at dire or extreme times. My point isn’t about checks and balances, that doing good makes it ok, it’s about overall perspective and using these moments to paint an inaccurate picture about what kind of person Bruce usually is.

"Severe mental strain" has never, ever worked as an excuse for abuse and Dick is never the one to throw the first punch. None of these excuses were also present in the tooth punch or him striking Tim in King's run.

Less people debated that Hank Pym was abusive to Jan and he only struck her once.

[Agent Z]

edited post.

[Ascended]

I agree that Bruce is an abusive bastard. He really is, and it's not even accidental on DC's part; this has happened enough they know what they're doing. I cannot fathom why anyone would put up with his sh*t. Bruce, especially the last thirty-odd years, has most assuredly become a serious douchebag who, if his actions involving his family were known, would be arrested. Even setting the "child soldier" superhero stuff aside, the fact that he's hit every one of his boys (and maybe some of the girls too, though I can't recall it) while they were still minors is unforgivable.

But using the thing right after Jason died? That's unfair. Bruce has just had a major nightmare come to life and lost a Robin. A kid he was responsible for died, and he's clearly not in his right mind. That doesn't excuse his behavior, it's still a d-bag thing to do, but this is a man dealing with the death of a kid he had taken in as his own. He's legit distraught, and not thinking clearly. And Dick might be younger than Bruce, but that's still a grown ass man. Not half as bad as punching a minor.

There's plenty of other examples of Bruce abusing his kids to pick from, the Jason thing is just mean.

Though if memory serves, the first fight Dick and Bruce had in Nightwing's series, Dick threw the first punch.

[Agent Z]

I agree that Bruce is an abusive bastard. He really is, and it's not even accidental on DC's part; this has happened enough they know what they're doing. I cannot fathom why anyone would put up with his sh*t. Bruce, especially the last thirty-odd years, has most assuredly become a serious douchebag who, if his actions involving his family were known, would be arrested. Even setting the "child soldier" superhero stuff aside, the fact that he's hit every one of his boys (and maybe some of the girls too, though I can't recall it) while they were still minors is unforgivable.

But using the thing right after Jason died? That's unfair. Bruce has just had a major nightmare come to life and lost a Robin. A kid he was responsible for died, and he's clearly not in his right mind. That doesn't excuse his behavior, it's still a d-bag thing to do, but this is a man dealing with the death of a kid he had taken in as his own. He's legit distraught, and not thinking clearly. And Dick might be younger than Bruce, but that's still a grown ass man. Not half as bad as punching a minor.

There's plenty of other examples of Bruce abusing his kids to pick from, the Jason thing is just mean.

Though if memory serves, the first fight Dick and Bruce had in Nightwing's series, Dick threw the first punch.

Dick's age in that scene doesn't make it any less bad and I'm pretty sure he was barely out of his teens when that happened. Bruce's mental state isn't an excuse and frankly doesn't speak well of how he deals with stress if that is his reaction.

[nhienphan2808]

In every other franchise, Bruce Wayne (not Batman) would have been called a villain. DC really have lost sight of what made him a hero.

[Alan2099]

In every other franchise, Bruce Wayne (not Batman) would have been called a villain. DC really have lost sight of what made him a hero.

Paranoid, deeply traumatized manipulative control freak that sits in his dark subterranean lair plotting ways to kill all the superheroes in the world "just in case" ... yeah, that sounds like a villain to me.

[gregpersons]

Batman would be a perfect villain for Spider-Man.

Bats is one of the few animal themes not already covered by Spidey's rogues, and you'd have the contrast of their financial resources (billionaire vs broke), and the contrast of how they gained their power (accident vs determined training).

[SiegePerilous02]

We are seriously considering Batman as a villain now.

Nice job DC. Thanks for nothing.

[Jackalope89]

Batman would be a perfect villain for Spider-Man.

Bats is one of the few animal themes not already covered by Spidey's rogues, and you'd have the contrast of their financial resources (billionaire vs broke), and the contrast of how they gained their power (accident vs determined training).

Nah. Bats is still DC's money maker. Besides, there are heroes that he is enemies to; Robin, Red Robin, Red Hood, and Batgirl. Nightwing is currently a no-show.

[nhienphan2808]

Not to mention the factor of his wealth and power. The way he got richer and richer following the detriment of his personality and the way he got away with bullshit just by making people think they owe him, there’s a VERY thin line between him and Lex Luthor that we can’t even see most of the time.