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  1. #31
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    I just want to say, mutants as a whole are pretty awful when it comes to actually, like, reproducing and being successful as a species. Like Mercury and Glob who can't reproduce at all. While Logan seems to have be able to have children, it's questionable if Laura would be able to given how the female body works. Her body would kill any sperm and would probably make a viable pregnancy impossible.

    While humans also have to deal with fertility problems, mutants would have to work around these in far greater numbers. Eventually, you'd likely just have a couple of mutants breeding, creating a situation rife for genetic bottle-necking.

  2. #32
    Mighty Member norj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    Are mutants simply "watered-down" Eternals/Eternals variants but without the cosmic might?
    I always thought mutates were descended from Eternals and Deviants the same way the Nuhumans are descended from the Inhumans.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knives View Post
    I would say that mutual assistance or collaboration is the basis of a society but I admit that morality is also an important factor but it is the first thing to be discarded in complicated situations.

    I don't see how mutants and humans can coexist in the same space under the circumstances. In the marvel universe there are no laws that protect mutants and governments and the military persecute, kill or use them in experiments. In the same way that Xavier is questioned and criticized, I don't feel that there is the same demand on the other side. Humans who commit crimes against mutants are almost never convicted.

    I have lost track of how many times the school was blown up or how many times the mutants were almost extinct.

    Krakoa only has support from countries and exists because humans need drugs so there is no intention for humans to accept mutants if there is nothing to gain .

    In this scenario and given Moira's information why should Mutants trust humans? There is no reason or anything to gain. Especially if we consider that they continue to try to destroy Krakoa and the mutants even after Xavier fulfills his promise then the problem is not the mutants, but the humans who keep trying to exterminate them.
    Pretty much this. The actions taken by Krakoan leadership in the name of preserving their people may be incredibly morally dubious if not downright horrific in places, but does anyone seriously think that those actions would come to be (seen as) necessary if humanity hadn't made it clear again and again that they would never accept or respect them as equals? That they would always try to exterminate mutants like they were vermin? That no human would ever be held accountable in a court of (human) law for harming or killing a mutant, whereas the same court would (almost) automatically condemn a mutant accused of harming or killing a human? In a nutshell, even if you consider Krakoa to be fundamentally in the wrong, at least acknowledge that Krakoa is a monster of humankind's own making.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    Are mutants simply "watered-down" Eternals/Eternals variants but without the cosmic might?
    More or less. They both were created by the Celestials tampering with human evolution in its early stages (deliberately or accidentally, depending on the backstory you choose to go with), but the Eternals came first, so they were vastly more powerful.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Pretty much this. The actions taken by Krakoan leadership in the name of preserving their people may be incredibly morally dubious if not downright horrific in places, but does anyone seriously think that those actions would come to be (seen as) necessary if humanity hadn't made it clear again and again that they would never accept or respect them as equals? That they would always try to exterminate mutants like they were vermin? That no human would ever be held accountable in a court of (human) law for harming or killing a mutant, whereas the same court would (almost) automatically condemn a mutant accused of harming or killing a human? In a nutshell, even if you consider Krakoa to be fundamentally in the wrong, at least acknowledge that Krakoa is a monster of humankind's own making.
    If human authorities hunted down anti-mutant groups for their bombings, murders, assassinations, etc... I don't even know how they could even operate. The mutants are small fries compared to humanity at large. It's one thing to deal with a team of X-Men or X-Force. It's another to have entire international task forces, investigative agencies, super teams, etc... hunting you down. And at that point they'd be no different to the rest of the world than Hydra or The Hand.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Sphere View Post
    If human authorities hunted down anti-mutant groups for their bombings, murders, assassinations, etc... I don't even know how they could even operate. The mutants are small fries compared to humanity at large. It's one thing to deal with a team of X-Men or X-Force. It's another to have entire international task forces, investigative agencies, super teams, etc... hunting you down. And at that point they'd be no different to the rest of the world than Hydra or The Hand.
    In a (more) just world, that would be exactly what would have happened. HYDRA was descended from the Nazis, racial supremacists who wanted to kill off everyone they saw as "impure" and "subhuman," the same basic motivation driving anti-mutant groups and their supporters/enablers. Of course, in the real world, it was only recently that law enforcement could finally classify white supremacists on the same threat level as foreign terrorists, and not helping matters was that a lot of those white supremacists were infiltrating law enforcement and military bodies. Could be something similar in the Marvel Universe to explain why no meaningful action has been taken against violent anti-mutant extremist groups.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Pretty much this. The actions taken by Krakoan leadership in the name of preserving their people may be incredibly morally dubious if not downright horrific in places, but does anyone seriously think that those actions would come to be (seen as) necessary if humanity hadn't made it clear again and again that they would never accept or respect them as equals? That they would always try to exterminate mutants like they were vermin? That no human would ever be held accountable in a court of (human) law for harming or killing a mutant, whereas the same court would (almost) automatically condemn a mutant accused of harming or killing a human? In a nutshell, even if you consider Krakoa to be fundamentally in the wrong, at least acknowledge that Krakoa is a monster of humankind's own making.



    More or less. They both were created by the Celestials tampering with human evolution in its early stages (deliberately or accidentally, depending on the backstory you choose to go with), but the Eternals came first, so they were vastly more powerful.
    The excuse of " we are doing bad things because others did bad things to us first" is great.

  7. #37

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    Eternals harvest/absorb cosmic energy to allow them to be strong and fly and transmute energy and all that, as programmed by the Celestials. They got so good at harvesting that cosmic energy that they became essentially immortal. The Deviants tend to not really have super powers as such, they are just strange looking(which does allow for enhanced abilities sometimes), but their forms are so variable that each Deviant could be considered a species of one. They focus on technology to make up for their limited longevity and super powers. So the Eternals are fairly homogeneous, the Deviants are extremely unique. Then you have the x-gene humans(which is all humans). The x-gene is dormant in every human on earth. If it manifests naturally, they are now mutants, who can take on various forms(like Deviants) while also having the potential for godlike power(like the Eternals). If it manifests unnaturally, like due to a gamma bomb or a radioactive spider-bite, they are called mutates, but their powers are still ultimately coming from that x-gene(otherwise they would just die from the radioactivity, for example).

    This is baked into Marvel continuity, but it seems like modern writers don't want to follow it, especially in the case of Hickman's X-Men run. Normal humans are not the enemies of mutants, and mutants didn't just 'naturally' evolve. The Celestials engineered them.

    And then the Inhumans are a Kree experiment to try to replicate the Eternals(whom the Kree ran into on one of the outer planets in our solar system, when a contingent of Eternals were banished from Earth and destroyed a Kree weapon cache they found), in an effort to counter their natural enemies, the Skrull(who have their shapeshifting powers, but then try to level up with their super-Skrull program).
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by yogaflame View Post
    Eternals harvest/absorb cosmic energy to allow them to be strong and fly and transmute energy and all that, as programmed by the Celestials. They got so good at harvesting that cosmic energy that they became essentially immortal. The Deviants tend to not really have super powers as such, they are just strange looking(which does allow for enhanced abilities sometimes), but their forms are so variable that each Deviant could be considered a species of one. They focus on technology to make up for their limited longevity and super powers. So the Eternals are fairly homogeneous, the Deviants are extremely unique. Then you have the x-gene humans(which is all humans). The x-gene is dormant in every human on earth. If it manifests naturally, they are now mutants, who can take on various forms(like Deviants) while also having the potential for godlike power(like the Eternals). If it manifests unnaturally, like due to a gamma bomb or a radioactive spider-bite, they are called mutates, but their powers are still ultimately coming from that x-gene(otherwise they would just die from the radioactivity, for example).

    This is baked into Marvel continuity, but it seems like modern writers don't want to follow it, especially in the case of Hickman's X-Men run. Normal humans are not the enemies of mutants, and mutants didn't just 'naturally' evolve. The Celestials engineered them.

    And then the Inhumans are a Kree experiment to try to replicate the Eternals(whom the Kree ran into on one of the outer planets in our solar system, when a contingent of Eternals were banished from Earth and destroyed a Kree weapon cache they found), in an effort to counter their natural enemies, the Skrull(who have their shapeshifting powers, but then try to level up with their super-Skrull program).
    You are wrong about something the X-gene isnt dormant in every human on earth. there are less than 1% of humans with X-gene dormant Sinistir for example made a big deal about it in the past. He used many mutants to have as amany cildren they culd to spread their X-gene so the future generations could have more mutants.

    You are taking an old approach. the mutates have nothing to do with the X-gene. The potential for super powers that has all life on earth isnt the same that the latent gene created by the Celestials. The potential for super powers come from the body of the Progenitor , the Celestial whose body gave origin to all life on earth. Later the Celestials created a latent gene for some humans. That latent gene was discovered by the kree and they experimented with some of these humans to create the inhumans.
    One the first inhumans left their own to live among humans. His unique DNA increased mutation in the human race and he was the ancestor of all mutants.
    Some other species of mutants appeared : like the proto mutants or killcrops , but the most succesful was the Homo superior. The Externals were the first mutants and its not confimed but its logical to think that all other mutants comes from them. The mutants can have human children and is know that the X-gene can be dormant for many generations, that assures that it will spread easily. Cyclops , Jean and the rasputin brothers have distant mutant ancestors.
    Last edited by hulkling; 02-07-2020 at 07:08 PM.

  9. #39

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    I am well aware of Aaron's recent nonsense in his Avengers run with the excuse of some dead Celestial puke being the source of all life on earth, but I am not buying it. It is in direct contradiction to decades of established lore that clearly defines the Celestials as having enacting experiments going on all over, and on earth in particular, they created three distinct races from the same proto-humans. If Aaron wants to say that that proto-human was already a descendant of Celestial puke, so be it, but it doesn't change the fact that the actual Celestial host came and did experiments:

    mutantscelestials.jpg

    The Celestials created the Eternals as a homogeneous cosmic ray-metabolizing race, the Deviants as unique expressions of the humanoid form in all its perturbations, and the humans, with a x-gene hidden in their code that would bear eventual fruit in both mutant and mutate form(it could be argued that it is the root source of Inhumans too, since the Kree experimented with primordial humans who already had the Celestial x-gene in there), having the variety of the Deviants but also the same godlike potential of the Eternals. The only real difference is how did the gene get expressed? Was it just normal background radiation and the hormonal spike of puberty or some stressful event? Was it a radioactive spider-bite? Was it a cosmic ray storm outside of earth's protection? Was it a gamma bomb exposure? Terrigen? Etc, etc.

    All humans on earth should have the x-gene hidden in there somewhere, even if it is non-coding (or 'junk DNA', as more that 75% of real human genome is). In the Earth X series back in the 90's, they had it so the Terrigen was released into the atmosphere and all humans on earth turned into mutants. That sort of thing can't happen if the x-gene isn't dormant in all the humans. Normal humans can't have mutant children if they don't have that x-gene in their DNA somewhere.

    I don't know who wrote that Sinister line, but it just doesn't make sense. Just like Morrison wrote that there was a termination gene in humans that would completely wipe them out within a few generations. No one works with that. Even Hickman isn't quite working with any of this continuity. Writers write whatever they want these days, but for decades of canon, the Celestials were the common source for all powered humans.
    Last edited by yogaflame; 02-07-2020 at 08:28 PM.
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  10. #40
    Mighty Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Pretty much this. The actions taken by Krakoan leadership in the name of preserving their people may be incredibly morally dubious if not downright horrific in places, but does anyone seriously think that those actions would come to be (seen as) necessary if humanity hadn't made it clear again and again that they would never accept or respect them as equals? That they would always try to exterminate mutants like they were vermin? That no human would ever be held accountable in a court of (human) law for harming or killing a mutant, whereas the same court would (almost) automatically condemn a mutant accused of harming or killing a human? In a nutshell, even if you consider Krakoa to be fundamentally in the wrong, at least acknowledge that Krakoa is a monster of humankind's own making.
    This point is particularly unrealistic from my point of view: for example, American mutants don't lose their nationality when it appears there are mutants. Even if they are discriminated, they are equal before the law and courts.

    That laws are enacted to maintain order and protect the citizens, I can understand. But creating laws that skip the mutants of their constitutional rights, it would be a moral bankruptcy that belongs to dystopias.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    This point is particularly unrealistic from my point of view: for example, American mutants don't lose their nationality when it appears there are mutants. Even if they are discriminated, they are equal before the law and courts.

    That laws are enacted to maintain order and protect the citizens, I can understand. But creating laws that skip the mutants of their constitutional rights, it would be a moral bankruptcy that belongs to dystopias.
    I mean, in olden days, the approach taken with mutants was sort of a "separate but equal" approach. It was meant go parallel discrimination against black people and how they were often treated with an often unofficial set up policies compared to their white counterparts.

    Over the years, this has turned into such an extreme that even when the writers do try and add in realistic elements from modern news, it still comes across rather...weird and detached.

    You can argue that Krakoa itself is something of a reaction to the extremes the writers have set on the X-Men.

    But that doesn't mean we are supposed to agree with what the mutants are doing.

  12. #42
    Mighty Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosebunse View Post
    I mean, in olden days, the approach taken with mutants was sort of a "separate but equal" approach. It was meant go parallel discrimination against black people and how they were often treated with an often unofficial set up policies compared to their white counterparts.

    Over the years, this has turned into such an extreme that even when the writers do try and add in realistic elements from modern news, it still comes across rather...weird and detached.

    You can argue that Krakoa itself is something of a reaction to the extremes the writers have set on the X-Men.

    But that doesn't mean we are supposed to agree with what the mutants are doing.
    The extremism of these stories makes anyone who has a iconoclastic point of view, a traitor to his 'race'. Among mutants… like among 'humans'. X-men were heroes once and followed their principles no matter what, fixing points in a changing world. For me, the real betrayal is giving up on his principles.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    The extremism of these stories makes anyone who has a iconoclastic point of view, a traitor to his 'race'. Among mutants… like among 'humans'. X-men were heroes once and followed their principles no matter what, fixing points in a changing world. For me, the real betrayal is giving up on his principles.
    Are we talking about Charles? Becsuer I question what those principles ever were with him.

  14. #44
    Mighty Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosebunse View Post
    Are we talking about Charles? Becsuer I question what those principles ever were with him.
    The X-men were principled. So was Charles Xavier. There have been some "hitches"… but theses hitches had been the subject of stories. Nobody was given a pass free.

    I would prefer that they call the comics "The mutants", not the "X-men".

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by hulkling View Post
    The excuse of " we are doing bad things because others did bad things to us first" is great.
    It works in reverse as well. "Mutants are doing bad things to survive, so humans were in the right all along to do the bad things they did to them in the past." What does that sound like? I understand that you may be trying to say "two wrongs don't make a right," but when the initial wrongdoing goes unaddressed, it sounds more like you're condemning the wronged for fighting back, like a lot of so-called "zero tolerance" policies carried out in a lot of schools in America that punish the bullied for physically confronting their bullies themselves instead of turning to a system that fails over and over to hold the bullies accountable in the first place.
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