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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    That got pointed out in X4 #1. Kitty called Franklin a kid, but it was pointed out that she was even younger than him when she joined the X-Men.
    And lets not forget that Jean wiped her parents minds of everything that happened when they first met too.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    Accepting *any* sort of vigilante-ism seems kinda shocking, really. Spider-Man leaves a bunch of guys webbed up to a lamp-post with a note for the cops? Those dudes would be free to walk as soon as the webbing deteriorates, because you can't 'arrest' someone by tying them up and leaving an anonymous note for the police that you caught them doing crime. And they've got an assault case, possibly even kidnapping, if they were carried somewhere while bound. Bang, Spider-Man's now wanted by the cops.
    Not so sure thats 100% true. In many of those cases there are victims and/or other witnesses out there to back up the arrest and prosecution.

    And that's not even counting all the heroes with unlicensed weapons. Iron Man. Thor. Hawkeye. Got a permit for that stuff?
    Well the people with guns would be unlicensed. The ones you listed though? I struggle to think of any law regulating repulsor rays, blunt hammers, and bow/arrows.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    (Yes, I agree, about naming it the Bendis era).

    However, I do agree with SuperiorIronman that his insight about the mutant revolution - it has gone on without a moral reckoning by other heroes in the MU. This mutant takeover looks a lot like the P5 of AVX done on the sly. It feels like a future where super heroes are not the moral compass anymore.

    Iím not sure, but there was always this tension about mutants existing, and humans trying to eradicate them, and now it gets to a head that after AVX, the mutant hierarchy have eventually figured out how to insinuate their goals into history at last. It started as Professor Xís vision of trying to appease the humans by glossing over the concept of a dominate species replacing humans. When that didnít work, the sly, spy, countermeasure began to look more favourable.
    Arguably, the Krakoan revolution was the moral reckoning you speak of, but in the sense of it being humanity's moral reckoning for years of genocide attempts against mutants that taught mutants they would never, ever be accepted among humans as equals or kindred, and a reckoning for the nonmutant superhero community for their years of turning a blind eye to increasing anti-mutant bigotry and violence by the same humans they protected and betraying their mutant allies through that inaction. If you treat people like monsters long enough . . . eventually they see no more point in trying to prove you wrong, especially if it comes at the expense of being wiped out en masse while nobody lifts a finger to help or a voice to protest. That's what humans and nonmutant superhumans alike have to reckon with now, that mutants are rising up to defend themselves and their right to exist by any means necessary, even if it means getting in bed with the same monsters they used to fight against to protect everyone else, because everyone else looks at all of them as monsters, anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    Myself? I rather give the heroes a pass on some of these questionable issues about their behaviour. Maybe thatís showing me up with a morally corrupt disposition, but I find in real life you have to play the cards youíre dealt. Not everything can be purely treated as black and white. But I did feel revulsion about Iron Man that time he arrested the inventor of Extremis, taking the position Tony was of a higher moral caliber when Tony was far from that. Tony then went on to believe in his own hubris during Civil War that he was better than other super heroes. Not cool. I think I am happy Tony has ended up as a mere hologram or clone - thatís justice.
    I'm inclined to agree, if only because of the collateral damage of Tony Stark's actions in the original Civil War that's still being felt to this day, i.e. One More Day. After all, would Aunt May be on the verge of death from a sniper's bullet, forcing her nephew and niece (by marriage, but still) to make a literal Faustian bargain with a literal devil to save her, exchanging their marriage for her life, if not for Iron Man cajoling Spider-Man into publicly renouncing his secret identity as a sign of support for the Superhero (or Superhuman) Registration Act, which made him and his loved ones a target for all his old enemies, especially once Spidey realized Tony was doing all kinds of shady, morally bankrupt things to win and broke company with him?
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Arguably, the Krakoan revolution was the moral reckoning you speak of, but in the sense of it being humanity's moral reckoning for years of genocide attempts against mutants that taught mutants they would never, ever be accepted among humans as equals or kindred, and a reckoning for the nonmutant superhero community for their years of turning a blind eye to increasing anti-mutant bigotry and violence by the same humans they protected and betraying their mutant allies through that inaction. If you treat people like monsters long enough . . . eventually they see no more point in trying to prove you wrong, especially if it comes at the expense of being wiped out en masse while nobody lifts a finger to help or a voice to protest. That's what humans and nonmutant superhumans alike have to reckon with now, that mutants are rising up to defend themselves and their right to exist by any means necessary, even if it means getting in bed with the same monsters they used to fight against to protect everyone else, because everyone else looks at all of them as monsters, anyway.
    I think a major issue for me is that outside of the X-Office the 'mutant condition' isn't really touched on. Nor is the anti-mutant racism. Beast, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver (yes...the last 2 aren't now but were believed at the time to be) are longtime members of the Avengers and treated by people at large as heroes. In Canada mutants are actively recruited by the government for their super hero program which leads me to believe Canadians don't have widespread anti-mutant sentiment. But once you get into the X-Books...it is like every human is a rabid, anti-mutant, genocidal racist.

    To me...since it is a broad universe...we should have seen mutants outside the X-Books more. And not just X-Men being used on other teams but mutants who are out front and center being heroes. And showing they are supported by people in their communities.

    I mentioned something about this in the old Iron Heart thread....what if her friend Xavier King was a mutant. And over several issues you just see this new hero in Chicago. You see him stop a speeding car with a couple gangbangers who have just done a drive by. Then a couple issues later helping the fire dept rescue people out of a multi story building and help put out the fire. Then a couple issue after that stopping some super villain from robbing a bank. Thru all this you don't know it is Xavier....til he tells Riri that it is him. Then he gives an interview and reveals he is a mutant (but keeps his secret ID). And with the people he saved, the police and fire fighters he helped....people get behind him and don't care he is a mutant. You have the some of the anti-mutant hate groups have rallies against him....but also people he saved and others having counter protests in support of him. Show that not every human in the MU is not anti-mutant.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    I think a major issue for me is that outside of the X-Office the 'mutant condition' isn't really touched on. Nor is the anti-mutant racism. Beast, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver (yes...the last 2 aren't now but were believed at the time to be) are longtime members of the Avengers and treated by people at large as heroes. In Canada mutants are actively recruited by the government for their super hero program which leads me to believe Canadians don't have widespread anti-mutant sentiment. But once you get into the X-Books...it is like every human is a rabid, anti-mutant, genocidal racist.

    To me...since it is a broad universe...we should have seen mutants outside the X-Books more. And not just X-Men being used on other teams but mutants who are out front and center being heroes. And showing they are supported by people in their communities.

    I mentioned something about this in the old Iron Heart thread....what if her friend Xavier King was a mutant. And over several issues you just see this new hero in Chicago. You see him stop a speeding car with a couple gangbangers who have just done a drive by. Then a couple issues later helping the fire dept rescue people out of a multi story building and help put out the fire. Then a couple issue after that stopping some super villain from robbing a bank. Thru all this you don't know it is Xavier....til he tells Riri that it is him. Then he gives an interview and reveals he is a mutant (but keeps his secret ID). And with the people he saved, the police and fire fighters he helped....people get behind him and don't care he is a mutant. You have the some of the anti-mutant hate groups have rallies against him....but also people he saved and others having counter protests in support of him. Show that not every human in the MU is not anti-mutant.
    Yeah, that would have been nice to see. Hell, there was a comic from the post-Clone Saga 90s where one of Peter's classmates from when he first returned to Empire State University to resume his studies was a mutant and he defended her as both himself and Spider-Man from the local chapter of the Friends of Humanity.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  6. #36
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    Yes and it started around 2006. So its been a while. And they are topping each other every year. The so called "sketchy" stuff in the 80s is a bit of a stretch to me and its nothing like now where its dark for the sake of dark. Stories seemed to be because he/she had a story to tell rather then following the dark/edgy trend to be cool. All these editors have been sounding the same for the last 15 years where they like seeing characters screw up and who are messed up with uh, "urges." I'm like "Great, you like anything else?" Marvel seems like an insecure man these days self conscious about its masculinity.

  7. #37
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    I like what Huntsman Spider and Chris0013 mention about the racism of humanity, that see non-mutant superheroes as allies, but for some reason see mutants need eradication. I have this concept of a deep-seated problem in white society, that is ever-present, about their racist predisposition, that they can’t get rid of. No matter how race relations progress, racism in white people (not everyone) but I include myself here, is allowing the racist continuation of white supremacy to dictate society. It is white is best, in movies, in advertising, in deciding to forget the bullying of dispossessing First Nations, and African Americans. This ingrained amnesia of the injustices of the past, shows white people hold firm to what racism created as our society. We white people (not all) are unwilling to rectify the inequality even when it is recognised because we are greedy to hang on the advantage we hold.

    I know that’s harsh, and it’s probably too great a criticism of white society, but I think white peoples racism needs to be reversed, identified, and rectified for white peoples vision to be restored as just. We can’t see properly to judge others if we cling to our own imbedded racism. We can’t deal properly with foreign policy in the racist state we are in.

    Taking that view as above, I can see why non-mutants are in the state they are in, in the Marvel Universe. I equate mutant racism to the broader racism against African Americans and Native Americans in society and want society to address it.

    Again, I apologise if I have hurt anybody’s concept of themselves. I feel it is a problem of society, so I like to identify it in discussions of this nature.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by HKlegogeek View Post
    Has anyone else noticed that most of the Marvel universe seems to be becoming really dark and morally corrupt?

    I mean look at FF Mr. Fantastic has chipped his son so he can't go to Krakoa, Professor X is working with all the evil mutants just ignoring all their pasts, all the mutants are freely going to a country without any checks or balances or laws other then the ones a self appointed board of mostly villains decides to put in place, the agents of atlas are just protecting a country of the ultra rich and corrupt who are holding a sentient being prisoner, and the other governments of the world are being held blackmail by the mutants as the avengers are do nothing. Going back to the "country of Pan" these open boarders to anyone with enough money also means that drugs and human trafficking or going to be completely out of hand.

    In the past the Marvel universe looked at things a bit more deeply and put some effort into making things more complex. All i'm seeing of this is the Agents of Atlas looking a little at refugees and ignoring everything else.

    what do others think?
    Sounds like something right out of today's headlines.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    I like what Huntsman Spider and Chris0013 mention about the racism of humanity, that see non-mutant superheroes as allies, but for some reason see mutants need eradication. I have this concept of a deep-seated problem in white society, that is ever-present, about their racist predisposition, that they can’t get rid of. No matter how race relations progress, racism in white people (not everyone) but I include myself here, is allowing the racist continuation of white supremacy to dictate society. It is white is best, in movies, in advertising, in deciding to forget the bullying of dispossessing First Nations, and African Americans. This ingrained amnesia of the injustices of the past, shows white people hold firm to what racism created as our society. We white people (not all) are unwilling to rectify the inequality even when it is recognised because we are greedy to hang on the advantage we hold.

    I know that’s harsh, and it’s probably too great a criticism of white society, but I think white peoples racism needs to be reversed, identified, and rectified for white peoples vision to be restored as just. We can’t see properly to judge others if we cling to our own imbedded racism. We can’t deal properly with foreign policy in the racist state we are in.

    Taking that view as above, I can see why non-mutants are in the state they are in, in the Marvel Universe. I equate mutant racism to the broader racism against African Americans and Native Americans in society and want society to address it.

    Again, I apologise if I have hurt anybody’s concept of themselves. I feel it is a problem of society, so I like to identify it in discussions of this nature.
    Harsh, but some interesting points you made there.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  10. #40
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    Thee were some other shady things with the Xmen in the 60's. Everyone gives a hard time to Colossus for his love of Kitty but what about professor X and his love of Jean Grey? The age difference is much greater and he was her teacher and mentor. Just smacks of creepy.
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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbaron View Post
    Thee were some other shady things with the Xmen in the 60's. Everyone gives a hard time to Colossus for his love of Kitty but what about professor X and his love of Jean Grey? The age difference is much greater and he was her teacher and mentor. Just smacks of creepy.
    Wasn't there also a story about how Reed and Sue originally met when Reed was in college and rented a room from Sue's aunt or something? Sue was like 12 or 14 and Reed had to move because she was too distracting.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    Wasn't there also a story about how Reed and Sue originally met when Reed was in college and rented a room from Sue's aunt or something? Sue was like 12 or 14 and Reed had to move because she was too distracting.
    I remember this but dont remember the issue. But yes Sue was very much under age. I have never read the issue myself but I remember my uncles church talking about it in a sermon about sex in literature and the pastor telling parents what books their children should avoid. It was part of their series about how media has descended into Hell.
    Last edited by babyblob; 02-13-2020 at 06:53 AM.
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  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbaron View Post
    I remember this but dont remember the issue. But yes Sue was very much under age. I have never read the issue myself but I remember my uncles church talking about it in a sermon about sex in literature and the pastor telling parents what books their children should avoid. It was part of their series about how media has descended into Hell.
    https://www.cbr.com/the-abandoned-an...he-was-twelve/

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbaron View Post
    Thee were some other shady things with the Xmen in the 60's. Everyone gives a hard time to Colossus for his love of Kitty but what about professor X and his love of Jean Grey? The age difference is much greater and he was her teacher and mentor. Just smacks of creepy.
    Well remember the thing about Colossus and Kitty is that she immediately had a crush on him and he was all WTF? When she became a team member, we immediately go into DOFP where we find out the decades later they were married and had children. If memory serves, nothing ever happened between them while she was a minor, and it was a specific plot point when she turned 14 and he said no. I'm not saying it was a good thing but it wasn't physically intimate, and its not like Piotr led her on or was inappropriate. He was also 18-19ish, so while an adult, I could see him coming around on her considering the only other woman around the mansion was Ororo.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by davew128 View Post
    Well remember the thing about Colossus and Kitty is that she immediately had a crush on him and he was all WTF? When she became a team member, we immediately go into DOFP where we find out the decades later they were married and had children. If memory serves, nothing ever happened between them while she was a minor, and it was a specific plot point when she turned 14 and he said no. I'm not saying it was a good thing but it wasn't physically intimate, and its not like Piotr led her on or was inappropriate. He was also 18-19ish, so while an adult, I could see him coming around on her considering the only other woman around the mansion was Ororo.
    Well, thats the thing he said no but current Marvel eluded to Wolverine sleeping with Squirrel Girl. At least Piotr and Kitty were both teens. Just to be clear he was right in saying no. Logan was 100 plus and bedding a 16 year old. Yep...

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