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  1. #16
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    It seems to me that the AoA were actually trying to infiltrate and investigate with them defending the people...not the institution...but that is just my $0.02.

    And as far as Reed chipping Franklin...he is his father and it is his responsibility to protect his child. I see that as no different than parents who track their kids phones and monitor their social media. And if a parent says you can't go to such and such...you don't get to go.

    I think one of the things we seem to forget in the MU...there are a whole lot of super powered minors running around putting themselves in danger wither with (Nova) or without (Ms Marvel) their parents knowledge as if this would be a perfectly acceptable thing IRL.
    And Spider-Man himself at the very beginning of the modern Marvel Universe, who if J. Jonah Jameson had had his way back in the day would have definitely been outlawed. It was why he worked so hard to keep his identity a secret, the trauma he feared inflicting on his ailing and then-recently widowed Aunt May should she find out, especially with the likes of Jameson and law enforcement having painted Spider-Man and his actions in the worst possible light. That said, if we're gonna talk heroes being shady going back to the beginnings of the MU, then technically Peter conned Jameson into paying him for selfies by omitting the truth that he was Spider-Man, and letting Norman Osborn go free after seemingly losing all memory of his actions as the Green Goblin despite the danger he posed to everyone around him, including his own son, who was also an acquaintance if not friend of Peter's, wasn't good, either. Oh, and also technically, the Spider-Slayers were as much his fault as Jameson's, because in the comic where the Spider-Slayers debuted, Peter egged him on to take Spencer Smythe's offer so he could humiliate him as Spider-Man and then get him to pay for the pictures of said humiliation as Peter. A morally dubious move in retrospect that led to a lot of pain, misery, and death for both him and Jameson over the years.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    And Spider-Man himself at the very beginning of the modern Marvel Universe, who if J. Jonah Jameson had had his way back in the day would have definitely been outlawed. It was why he worked so hard to keep his identity a secret, the trauma he feared inflicting on his ailing and then-recently widowed Aunt May should she find out, especially with the likes of Jameson and law enforcement having painted Spider-Man and his actions in the worst possible light. That said, if we're gonna talk heroes being shady going back to the beginnings of the MU, then technically Peter conned Jameson into paying him for selfies by omitting the truth that he was Spider-Man, and letting Norman Osborn go free after seemingly losing all memory of his actions as the Green Goblin despite the danger he posed to everyone around him, including his own son, who was also an acquaintance if not friend of Peter's, wasn't good, either. Oh, and also technically, the Spider-Slayers were as much his fault as Jameson's, because in the comic where the Spider-Slayers debuted, Peter egged him on to take Spencer Smythe's offer so he could humiliate him as Spider-Man and then get him to pay for the pictures of said humiliation as Peter. A morally dubious move in retrospect that led to a lot of pain, misery, and death for both him and Jameson over the years.
    Hell...Tony Stark gave Force a free pass for his crimes just before the original Armor War. Created a fake identity and gave him a job.

  3. #18
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    Hell...Tony Stark gave Force a free pass for his crimes just before the original Armor War. Created a fake identity and gave him a job.
    And depending on how you feel about Tony's regular occupation . . .
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  4. #19
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Yeah, the Marvel 'heroes' seem to mostly be authoritarian, at best- and outright diabolical at worst. There seems to be no concern for national sovereignty or personal liberties of every day people- outside of Captain America and lesser characters like Ms Marvel, Luke Cage, and Daredevil.

    It seems like science and technology run amok. Uber wealth is lauded as this great thing and the characters who wield it are praised rather than examined (there are exceptions). A far cry from the past working class ethos of Peter Parker, who now is a CEO or heir to Iron Man.

    I'd like to see Marvel reverse this trend.
    Last edited by Flash Gordon; 02-09-2020 at 08:11 PM.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    Yeah, the Marvel 'heroes' seem to mostly be authoritarian, at best- and outright diabolical at worst. There seems to be no concern for national sovereignty or personal liberties of every day people- outside of Captain America and lesser characters like Ms Marvel, Luke Cage, and Daredevil.

    It seems like science and technology run amok. Uber wealth is lauded as this great thing and the characters who wield it are praised rather than examined (there are exceptions). A far cry from the past working class ethos of Peter Parker, who now is a CEO or heir to Iron Man.

    I'd like to see Marvel reverse this trend.
    Tony Stark sure isn't praised and Peter recently lost Parker Industries.

  6. #21
    Astonishing Member babyblob's Avatar
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    How about in the early days of the X Men when Professor X was mind wiping everyone under the sun? He messed with Blob and his carny henchmen,Mind wiped Vanisher and Mimic. All while going on about how mutants should not abuse their powers. I have always Seen Pro X as kind of a jerk. He takes a group of young teens and trains them in deadly combat tactics to use as his personal strike force. Sure his motives were said to be pure, to protect the world from evil mutants. But what if the us government trained underage kids in combat, had them put on costumes and do their bidding. In a world where we go on about the evils of child soldiers I am shocked that more people are not upset by this. I mean Booby was only 16 when he joined the Xmen. And wernt the New Mutants around that age or younger? And Kitty Pride was only like 13 when she started her training.
    Favorite teams. Alpha Flight, Avengers, Fantastic Four, West Coast Avengers, Justice Society of America, Legion of Superheroes.

  7. #22
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    That got pointed out in X4 #1. Kitty called Franklin a kid, but it was pointed out that she was even younger than him when she joined the X-Men.
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  8. #23
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbaron View Post
    How about in the early days of the X Men when Professor X was mind wiping everyone under the sun? He messed with Blob and his carny henchmen,Mind wiped Vanisher and Mimic. All while going on about how mutants should not abuse their powers. I have always Seen Pro X as kind of a jerk. He takes a group of young teens and trains them in deadly combat tactics to use as his personal strike force. Sure his motives were said to be pure, to protect the world from evil mutants. But what if the us government trained underage kids in combat, had them put on costumes and do their bidding. In a world where we go on about the evils of child soldiers I am shocked that more people are not upset by this. I mean Booby was only 16 when he joined the Xmen. And wernt the New Mutants around that age or younger? And Kitty Pride was only like 13 when she started her training.
    Yeah, I do think the acceptance of teenage heroes in society (for marvel and DC) has always been a bit surprising.

    Training teenage heroes is one thing, but sending them out into combat is a bit questionable. I'm surprised the government is only now trying to ban this to be honest.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Yeah, I do think the acceptance of teenage heroes in society (for marvel and DC) has always been a bit surprising.

    Training teenage heroes is one thing, but sending them out into combat is a bit questionable. I'm surprised the government is only now trying to ban this to be honest.
    Accepting *any* sort of vigilante-ism seems kinda shocking, really. Spider-Man leaves a bunch of guys webbed up to a lamp-post with a note for the cops? Those dudes would be free to walk as soon as the webbing deteriorates, because you can't 'arrest' someone by tying them up and leaving an anonymous note for the police that you caught them doing crime. And they've got an assault case, possibly even kidnapping, if they were carried somewhere while bound. Bang, Spider-Man's now wanted by the cops.

    And that's not even counting all the heroes with unlicensed weapons. Iron Man. Thor. Hawkeye. Got a permit for that stuff? Come with me. You there, with the BFG and the pouches and the tiny little ballerina feet, get back to whatever dystopian future you come from, mutie cyborg freak! Anything about you that isn't already illegal, probably should be!

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    Accepting *any* sort of vigilante-ism seems kinda shocking, really. Spider-Man leaves a bunch of guys webbed up to a lamp-post with a note for the cops? Those dudes would be free to walk as soon as the webbing deteriorates, because you can't 'arrest' someone by tying them up and leaving an anonymous note for the police that you caught them doing crime. And they've got an assault case, possibly even kidnapping, if they were carried somewhere while bound. Bang, Spider-Man's now wanted by the cops.

    And that's not even counting all the heroes with unlicensed weapons. Iron Man. Thor. Hawkeye. Got a permit for that stuff? Come with me. You there, with the BFG and the pouches and the tiny little ballerina feet, get back to whatever dystopian future you come from, mutie cyborg freak! Anything about you that isn't already illegal, probably should be!
    Ironically, it's the superheroes who do want to become licensed crime fighters that tend to be depicted as either evil or misguided.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Yeah, I do think the acceptance of teenage heroes in society (for marvel and DC) has always been a bit surprising.

    Training teenage heroes is one thing, but sending them out into combat is a bit questionable. I'm surprised the government is only now trying to ban this to be honest.

    IIRC..that is why Stan brought back Cap...and not Bucky. He was vehemently against kid sidekicks.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    IIRC..that is why Stan brought back Cap...and not Bucky. He was vehemently against kid sidekicks.
    And why Spider-Man, even though he was a teenager at the time of his debut, wasn't anybody's sidekick, contrary to more recent adaptations like the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Instead, he was bereft of a father figure due to his own selfish, shortsighted actions, for which he would spend his entire heroic career attempting to atone, which also factored into why he kept his identity such a tightly guarded secret, even if it came at the cost of friends, social, professional, and/or personal advancement, and the respect and trust of those around him. Not to mention that his foremost fear in regards to being exposed as Spider-Man was how his widowed mother figure would react to it, especially if she were to find out that it was his fault her beloved husband was dead. In a nutshell, there was a character who probably could have benefited from the mentorship of a more experienced adult in his life when he was starting out as a hero, but due to the circumstances by which he became a hero, it would be extremely difficult for him to willingly seek or accept one.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  13. #28
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Yeah, I think if you look at the world that Jack and Stan first created, it actually was quite dark. It arguably lighted up a bit in the 80's or so... but I think around the time Quesada was Editor in chief (I sometimes think of it as the Bendis era, though that perhaps gives him too much credit) a bit more realism and darkness sort of crept back in there.

    I think once the Ultimate Universe (a somewhat darker more realistic version of the MU) started generating a lot of buzz, the main 616 started following suit almost to the point where the Ultimate Universe started feeling somewhat redundent.
    (Yes, I agree, about naming it the Bendis era).

    However, I do agree with SuperiorIronman that his insight about the mutant revolution - it has gone on without a moral reckoning by other heroes in the MU. This mutant takeover looks a lot like the P5 of AVX done on the sly. It feels like a future where super heroes are not the moral compass anymore.

    I’m not sure, but there was always this tension about mutants existing, and humans trying to eradicate them, and now it gets to a head that after AVX, the mutant hierarchy have eventually figured out how to insinuate their goals into history at last. It started as Professor X’s vision of trying to appease the humans by glossing over the concept of a dominate species replacing humans. When that didn’t work, the sly, spy, countermeasure began to look more favourable.
    Last edited by jackolover; 02-10-2020 at 09:13 PM.

  14. #29
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    Yeah, the Marvel 'heroes' seem to mostly be authoritarian, at best- and outright diabolical at worst. There seems to be no concern for national sovereignty or personal liberties of every day people- outside of Captain America and lesser characters like Ms Marvel, Luke Cage, and Daredevil.

    It seems like science and technology run amok. Uber wealth is lauded as this great thing and the characters who wield it are praised rather than examined (there are exceptions). A far cry from the past working class ethos of Peter Parker, who now is a CEO or heir to Iron Man.

    I'd like to see Marvel reverse this trend.
    Myself? I rather give the heroes a pass on some of these questionable issues about their behaviour. Maybe that’s showing me up with a morally corrupt disposition, but I find in real life you have to play the cards you’re dealt. Not everything can be purely treated as black and white. But I did feel revulsion about Iron Man that time he arrested the inventor of Extremis, taking the position Tony was of a higher moral caliber when Tony was far from that. Tony then went on to believe in his own hubris during Civil War that he was better than other super heroes. Not cool. I think I am happy Tony has ended up as a mere hologram or clone - that’s justice.
    Last edited by jackolover; 02-10-2020 at 09:37 PM.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    Vault...not Project Pegasus...and IIRC...Stane mass produced the Guardsmen for the Government. And did not lie to the Avengers...they knew it was him all along...he told SHIELD it was someone else...and the Avengers did not rat him out thereby making them accomplices to his crimes.
    Sorry, but Tony absolutely flat out lied to the WCA about who was in the armor and they called him out on it.

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