Dc should really respect and restore the legacy of Batgirl and what it means.

[Gotham citizen]

[…]
If Oracle is such "important" and totally not outdated, why not give it to either Stephanie or Cassandra?
[…]

Why give the role of Oracle to Stephanie or Cassandra, if Barbara already has the skills to be Oracle, while Stephanie or Cassandra don't?

[millernumber1]

The problem with the Orcale role is that the people who are rooting for it seem to be under the assumption that the "good old glorious days" going to stay glorious forever as long as things stay the same which is completely unrealistic because things have to change. Orcale was the product of her time and a brilliant idea, but it can't work today because you can't tell me none of you have noticed that characters like Orcale are nonexistence in today media compared to how it was a decade ago? No one needs a character like that in fictional stories anymore and the Batfamily and the rest of DC heroes definitely don't. So, she would have been completely irrelevant and useless if she stayed as Oracle.

DC decided to make a decision regradless of personal feelings to have Barbara as Batgirl because she is far more marketable than Stephanie and Cassandra. It sucks I know, but you usually can't please everyone in business like this (just look at Robins fans, GL fans...etc).

No, because I want DC to looks forward instead of being stuck in the past. You wouldn't have got Stephanie and Cassandra in the first place if they didn't do it before.

How many characters like Oracle were around in the 90s? No, not "super hackers" - people who functioned like The Machine in Person of Interest - not just a "hacker," but an analyst, strategist, planner, organizer, observer, detective. Are librarians obsolete today? The idea that Oracle was a dime a dozen in the 90s, and nonexistent now doesn't strike me as true.

Characters aren't magically marketable by themselves. You can build a character up into something more marketable.

None of you have answered me yet, which hero you want Barbara to play second fiddle to? Which team needs her when they all at least have one member who either genius/leader/strategist or whatever? If Oracle is such "important" and totally not outdated, why not give it to either Stephanie or Cassandra? After all, the whole issue is all about them.

If they want to give them back their history, be my guest. Resorting things to how it was in the 90s/00s? Yeah, no.

Second fiddle to - that's a question that has no answer. I do not want her to be second fiddle. I want her as a main character in something like Suicide Squad or Birds of Prey - or even an Oracle title. I want her to appear as a supporting role in many other titles. But if you phrase it as "second fiddle," you are assuming that people don't want Babs to be a main character. And that's assuming bad faith.

I do not want Oracle to continue to be used as a villain, villainous concept, villainous AI, or period when Babs was in a bad place. Oracle was a hero, a great force for good, a person with very complicated motivations and flaws but also strengths and virtues. She wasn't what DC has tried to tell us she was for the past 5 years.

Everyone.

She's the control for the Birds of Prey. She's the girl back home for Nightwing. She's Batman's conscience. She's the secretary-general of the Justice League. She's the technology forensics consultant for Flash. And she's the mentor for Steph and Cass and whatever other Batgirl will appear in the future.

Well said. But as I said, she's not second fiddle. She's her own character, and assuming that she's "just a hacker" or "second fiddle" is not what fans of Oracle, Cass, and Steph are saying.

Why give the role of Oracle to Stephanie or Cassandra, if Barbara already has the skills to be Oracle, while Stephanie or Cassandra don't?

At this point, given Tynion's use of Steph in Detective Comics, she is a candidate for Oracle. As is Tim.

[Godlike13]

Oracle as it was would be outdated and less relatable. Oracle and her methods would need to be upgraded and modernize for today’s sensibilities. Today’s technology is all about accessibility and convenience. I actually think there could be cool things done with Oracle with today’s tech, using apps, ai services, the cloud, drones, etc, but her going back to just sitting at desktop being mission control would be outdated. Characters have gotten by just fine with out that and BoP now even probably isn’t going to be associated with Oracle much going forward.

[millernumber1]

Oracle as it was would be outdated and less relatable. Oracle and her methods would need to be upgraded and modernize for today’s technologies sensibilities. Today’s technology is all about accessibility and convenience. I actually think there could be cool thing done with Oracle with today’s tech, using apps and the cloud, but her going back to just sitting at desktop being mission control would be outdated.

I have no problem with updating Oracle.

[Flash Gordon]

Have you seen the movie? No, it's not Harley Quinn "runs the BoP". More Harley Quinn teams up with the women who later will become part of the Birds of Prey.

Also, doing Oracle as "awesome hacker" was lazy writing. Computers were the tools that Oracle used. But what she did was managing information and running superhero teams. And for that her prior experience as Batgirl was central.

Hey, I wasn't even knocking the movie. Simply stating that Harley Quinn is now the star of the Birds of Prey.

Managing information and running superhero teams from a desktop is very 1995. It's also not really important that, that is Barbara Gordon. Could be a new character, could be anyone that Batman trusts.

[Flash Gordon]

Oracle as it was would be outdated and less relatable. Oracle and her methods would need to be upgraded and modernize for today’s sensibilities. Today’s technology is all about accessibility and convenience. I actually think there could be cool thing done with Oracle with today’s tech, using apps, ai services, the cloud, drones, etc, but her going back to just sitting at desktop being mission control would be outdated. Characters have gotten by just fine with out that and BoP now even probably isn’t going to be associated with Oracle much going forward.

Totally, Oracle is horribly outdated now. Cecil Castellucci had a great spin on it as a villain for Batgirl in the most recent arc.

[Agent Z]

Everyone is doing just fine without her as Orcale for over a decade because like I said already, the computer guy is no longer relevent in fiction nowadays.

Says who? It's still very common in procedural and superhero shows. Even DC doesn't believe this given how many times they've tried to replace Oracle.

Also, why Barbara can't be any of what you mentioned without being Oracle?

Why does she have to be Batgirl to be considered modernized?

Agent Z: First of all, me saying Oracle is outdated concept isn't attack.

Well, it certainly isn't a compliment.

Second of all, Supernan says hey. You know, the guy who many keep saying that he is outdated and DC has been trying for decades to modernize him which what they are trying to do with Barbara.

I don't see anyone saying they should get rid of Superman.

[Frontier]

Oracle as it was would be outdated and less relatable. Oracle and her methods would need to be upgraded and modernize for today’s sensibilities. Today’s technology is all about accessibility and convenience. I actually think there could be cool things done with Oracle with today’s tech, using apps, ai services, the cloud, drones, etc, but her going back to just sitting at desktop being mission control would be outdated. Characters have gotten by just fine with out that and BoP now even probably isn’t going to be associated with Oracle much going forward.

Considering the movie's lukewarm box office, I don't think Harley is going to be the main factor of the BoP either.

I mean, Batman has updated with the changing technology, so of course Oracle would too.

Managing information and running superhero teams from a desktop is very 1995. It's also not really important that, that is Barbara Gordon. Could be a new character, could be anyone that Batman trusts.

But they still have characters who fulfill those roles, so...

Totally, Oracle is horribly outdated now. Cecil Castellucci had a great spin on it as a villain for Batgirl in the most recent arc.

Isn't it extremely problematic turning an identity once known as a positive and strong portrayal of a character with disability into a villain?

[millernumber1]

Totally, Oracle is horribly outdated now. Cecil Castellucci had a great spin on it as a villain for Batgirl in the most recent arc.

That's...no. It's not great, and Oracle is nowhere near "horribly outdated" - information technology is still a field that requires experts, and strategy, analysis, and tactics can't be done by just anyone.

I don't see anyone saying they should get rid of Superman.

To be fair to the argument, I do see a lot of people saying things like "Superman is outdated, we should have villain Superman instead, etc." They are wrong, however. Just as they are wrong about Oracle.

Considering the movie's lukewarm box office, I don't think Harley is going to be the main factor of the BoP either.

Isn't it extremely problematic turning an identity once known as a positive and strong portrayal of a character with disability into a villain?

We'll see how the Conner/Palmiotti and Azzarello Birds of Prey projects do, but I really don't see them attracting the Birds of Prey fans significantly at this point.

I don't like using the term "problematic" as it's the negative version of the term "interesting" - not nearly informative enough - but turning a hero into a villain is generally not a great move.

[Godlike13]

Even if Harley: BoP doesn’t turn out well, they will probably just shelf the brand then. Notice how the first reaction is to retitle to movie. Make sure people know it’s a Harley movie first, as if the title was the problem. Anyway Harley will be fine, BoP will take the real hit. So either way it’s probably not good for Oracle and BoPs prospects going forward.

[Vakanai]

Actually, I think there's a case to be made for exactly that. The "Birds of Prey" IP has existed for something like 25 years and now WB / DC wants to cash in on the brand recognition with a feature film. Only thing is, the BOP brand has been built to (almost) always include Barbara Gordon as the center piece, as Oracle or as Batgirl.

Her absence renders the use of "Birds of Prey" IP moot then, except to fans of Black Canary only. It's why the film should've always been titled with Harley Quinn's name at the front — it's obviously a movie for Harley fans more than it is for fans of BOP.

Perhaps if the film had included Barbara Gordon — maybe as a teenage Oracle, getting involved in crime-fighting from her bedroom and not yet in the field as Batgirl (until maybe the end of the film) — there would've been not only room for more excitement about the film, but also an opportunity to better fuse Oracle into the Batgirl mythos holistically, rather than the two being treated as completely separate identities.

Yeah, no. The general audience doesn't know that the Birds of Prey IP existed until this movie, still don't know they're usually led by Oracle, and don't even know who Oracle is. To make the argument you're making is to seriously overestimate what the non-comics audience knows of this franchise. Oracle not being in the audience has only cost the film some tickets from the people who actually read the comics, which is a very small portion of the audience.

[dietrich]

I find it annoying to how DC views the many versions of male Robins and how each of them have a title to themselves, but where is that for Batgirl or any female Robin ?

Seriously DC should definitely make a mini series which restores the Batgirl mantel and Cass and Steph’s place within the Batman family.

That and the movie of BOP and how it makes Cass not Cassandra Cain like from the comics. I’ve heard of difference from the films and comics, but that’s a step too far. Especially when you learn that the actress playing Cass has knowledge of what Cassandra Cain is supposed to be via comic book reading.

As fans of Batgirl and her true overall history: Do you think that DC should at least make an effort to restore things with what they used to be ?

Also I want to see Cassandra and Stephanie mourn Alfred too in their own way.

Cass and Steph are members of the Batfamily. They are also in books like all the previous Robins. I was under the impression that Their time as Batgirls where now established as of Rebirth Tec.
Steph got a solo cover for the Robin 80th unlike current Robin despite a tenure in the role that's comparable to Jarro's.

Cass has a Zoom title Shadow of the Bat. I don't see the issue. I don't mind not getting an issue where the girls mourn Alfred especially in light of the direction the Pennyworth RIP ended going in.

[Vakanai]

Why give the role of Oracle to Stephanie or Cassandra, if Barbara already has the skills to be Oracle, while Stephanie or Cassandra don't?

Because Barbara is Batgirl, duh

[Vakanai]

I don't see anyone saying they should get rid of Superman.

And no one is saying to get rid of Babs. She's just back to her most iconic identity. Oracle isn't her Superman, Batgirl is.

[kjn]

Totally, Oracle is horribly outdated now. Cecil Castellucci had a great spin on it as a villain for Batgirl in the most recent arc.

Evil AI Oracle is horrendously ableistic. What does it say other than that people with disabilities are broken and morally deficient? To take what is an icon for many disabled people and twist her like that is grotesque, distasteful, and totally lacking in basic humanity.