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  1. #31
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    That misrepresentation of Oracle’s position prior to New 52 is rather disingenuous and honestly kind of frustrating. Things were bad with Oracle prior to the New 52.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 02-10-2020 at 09:06 PM.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    I just started reading this and was going to say that, but you beat me to it.

    If we're talking about 'female Robins', like the first post in this thread, well, Betty or Bette, is the first, down to the costume even.
    So was Roberta.

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  3. #33
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    That misrepresentation of Oracle’s position prior to New 52 is rather disingenuous and honestly kind of frustrating. Things were bad with Oracle prior to the New 52.
    I don't see how they were bad. They went downhill for a bit when Birds of Prey initially ended, with the fairly poor The Cure miniseries, but Steph's Batgirl run, (mostly) Simone's second Birds of Prey run (though Death of Oracle may be what you're referring to?), and The Black Mirror all featured her pretty well.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    That misrepresentation of Oracle’s position prior to New 52 is rather disingenuous and honestly kind of frustrating. Things were bad with Oracle prior to the New 52.
    Things haven't been perfect Barbara since the New 52 either.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I don't see how they were bad. They went downhill for a bit when Birds of Prey initially ended, with the fairly poor The Cure miniseries, but Steph's Batgirl run, (mostly) Simone's second Birds of Prey run (though Death of Oracle may be what you're referring to?), and The Black Mirror all featured her pretty well.
    BOP ended very poorly for Oracle, The Cure piled on top of that, and Steph’s Batgirl was the culmination of Oracle’s positional irrelevance at the time. Simone's second Birds of Prey run demonstrated itself Oracle’s only alternative avenue, and quite frankly seemed like a struggle to even put together with artists issues and general staleness. In a time where every character around her was progressing to new things, Oracle was struggling just to repeat her usual. Oracle was an after thought with Reborn, and then with Brightest Day it was clear it was same old same old or bust with her. She had barely any greater DCU presence beyond throw away lines or sporadic guest appearances they enviably went nowhere. Also while Black Mirror was a good Batman story, it wasn’t kind to Oracle.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 02-11-2020 at 12:23 AM.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    BOP ended very poorly for Oracle, The Cure piled on top of that, and Steph’s Batgirl was the culmination of Oracle’s positional irrelevance at the time. Simone's second Birds of Prey run demonstrated itself Oracle’s only alternative avenue, and quite frankly seemed like a struggle to even put together with artist issues and general staleness. In a time we’re every character around her were progressing to new things, Oracle was struggling just to repeat her usual. Oracle was an after thought with Reborn, and with Brightest Day it was clear it was same old same old or burst with her. Also while Black Mirror was a good Batman story, it wasn’t kind to Oracle.
    All true, but the last thing that Oracle does in the Pre-52 timeline is become deus ex machina of the internet 3.0 in Batman Inc — she ends in a position where she could've made a major progression unique to her. Of course they didn't follow up on it at all but it's a good idea for an evolution for Oracle.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cmbmool View Post
    Also I want to see Cassandra and Stephanie mourn Alfred too in their own way.
    Honestly I don't think that Stephanie was that close to Alfred, and imo even Barbara is out of place there.


    When it comes to Birds of Prey, I think that IP is in a pretty bad shape and they need probably a really strong writer and a fresh take on bring it back on track.
    Last edited by Aahz; 02-11-2020 at 12:44 AM.

  8. #38
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    BoP probably wouldn’t even use Oracle now.

  9. #39
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    That misrepresentation of Oracle’s position prior to New 52 is rather disingenuous and honestly kind of frustrating. Things were bad with Oracle prior to the New 52.
    But so it appears there were lots of things bad with DC before the New 52. It's not like consistent great quality is a thing in comics.

    Oracle was important in Suicide Squad, as something entirely new in comics. Then we had Dixon's great run, followed by Simone's first run (though I do agree she started to run out of steam by the end). Later writers and editors couldn't follow up, but Oracle had a decade of great innovative stories between Ostrander, Yale, Dixon, and Simone.

    And like godisawesome pointed out, the way Babs was put back in the suit left her in a narrative dead end.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  10. #40
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    For being at a narrative dead end she has seen far more of it with her return to Batgirl, with a greater degree of variety and experimentation, then Oracle was seeing. You can pick and choose the greatest hits through a characters multiple decades to misrepresent the characters position, but unfortunately the character was on hard times and a seemingly creative dead end with DC at the time of her transition back to Batgirl.

    Btw notice how DC did both a SS movie and a BoP movie with no Oracle in sight. I think that says all that needs to be said about how important DC thinks Oracle was to those brands.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 02-11-2020 at 03:57 AM.

  11. #41
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Things haven't been perfect Barbara since the New 52 either.
    We've had a lot of great Barbara since the ole '52.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    I think I’d have to say that DC will probably never have as high profile or significant impact that Babs did as Oracle for people with disabilities.
    That has more to do with DC's mismanaging it's characters than Barbara.

  13. #43
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    BOP ended very poorly for Oracle, The Cure piled on top of that, and Steph’s Batgirl was the culmination of Oracle’s positional irrelevance at the time. Simone's second Birds of Prey run demonstrated itself Oracle’s only alternative avenue, and quite frankly seemed like a struggle to even put together with artists issues and general staleness. In a time where every character around her was progressing to new things, Oracle was struggling just to repeat her usual. Oracle was an after thought with Reborn, and then with Brightest Day it was clear it was same old same old or bust with her. She had barely any greater DCU presence beyond throw away lines or sporadic guest appearances they enviably went nowhere. Also while Black Mirror was a good Batman story, it wasn’t kind to Oracle.
    I already acknowledged that 2008-2009 was bad. But I think 2009-2011 was very good. I do not understand the idea that "Steph's Batgirl showed that Babs was irrelevant." If that's what you come away from that run with, I...just don't get it. She was a really strong character in that, vitally important to Gotham and fighting off major threats as, I would argue, pretty much a co-leading role (until DC yanked her for Birds of Prey...but didn't say anything to Snyder about using her in Black Mirror...) I do think that Simone's second run struggled quite a bit - largely because of the complete mismanagement of Canary and Oracle between 2007-2009, but I think by the end, with the Junior storyline, she was firmly back on track. Now, given that I think her Batgirl run was really bad, maybe that's wishful thinking. Maybe we would have just gotten more of the reactive, incompetent Barbara that Simone wrote in her Batgirl run, but that's not how issues 12-13 played for me. As for Black Mirror not being kind to Oracle, I think it affirmed her strength as a compelling person with family and friend relationships. No, she doesn't pull off any amazing technical feats, but I don't see how it was a negative for her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Honestly I don't think that Stephanie was that close to Alfred, and imo even Barbara is out of place there.

    When it comes to Birds of Prey, I think that IP is in a pretty bad shape and they need probably a really strong writer and a fresh take on bring it back on track.
    I agree that current Steph isn't close to Alfred. Babs I think has a pretty strong claim, though.

    You're definitely right that Birds of Prey as an IP has no coherent identity right now, and seems to be DC's idea of "how to give Harley yet another book" instead of anything meaningful in and of itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    BoP probably wouldn’t even use Oracle now.
    We have two Birds of Prey books coming out, and yes, both of them are ignoring Oracle. Not to mention the fairly limp 100 page giant that hit Walmart recently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    For being at a narrative dead end she has seen far more of it with her return to Batgirl, with a greater degree of variety and experimentation, then Oracle was seeing. You can pick and choose the greatest hits through a characters multiple decades to misrepresent the characters position, but unfortunately the character was on hard times and a seemingly creative dead end with DC at the time of her transition back to Batgirl.

    Btw notice how DC did both a SS movie and a BoP movie with no Oracle in sight. I think that says all that needs to be said about how important DC thinks Oracle was to those brands.
    You mention this variety and experimentation, but I look at her time as Batgirl since the n52 came, and I see two varieties: dark and reactive, and bright and bubbly tech villains.

    I don't see how DC's idiotic decision making (the reactions by fans and critics to SS, and the box office so far of Birds of Prey seem to bear my point up here) should make fans of Oracle say, "Welp, we're just wrong."
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  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1
    I already acknowledged that 2008-2009 was bad. But I think 2009-2011 was very good. I do not understand the idea that "Steph's Batgirl showed that Babs was irrelevant." If that's what you come away from that run with, I...just don't get it. She was a really strong character in that, vitally important to Gotham and fighting off major threats as, I would argue, pretty much a co-leading role (until DC yanked her for Birds of Prey...but didn't say anything to Snyder about using her in Black Mirror...) I do think that Simone's second run struggled quite a bit - largely because of the complete mismanagement of Canary and Oracle between 2007-2009, but I think by the end, with the Junior storyline, she was firmly back on track. Now, given that I think her Batgirl run was really bad, maybe that's wishful thinking. Maybe we would have just gotten more of the reactive, incompetent Barbara that Simone wrote in her Batgirl run, but that's not how issues 12-13 played for me. As for Black Mirror not being kind to Oracle, I think it affirmed her strength as a compelling person with family and friend relationships. No, she doesn't pull off any amazing technical feats, but I don't see how it was a negative for her.
    Being the new Batgirl’s Obi Wan is far from an important role in the grand scheme of the DC Universe. The only thing she was vitally important to was helping to establish the new Batgirl. Make her Batgirl again, how degrading, making her the new Batgirl’s Obi Wan sidekick, she’s ‘vitally important’. Sure...
    And struggling to just get back on track, a rather stale track at that, when every one around her are progressing on new tracks, is not something to commend by any means. This is a trap DC does. They are doing it with Nightwing and Ric right now. They defeat fans bases to the point they celebrate when they just do the same old same old again.

    And Black Mirror was rather brutal to Oracle. She was tortured and ridiculed, with a pretty graphic scene of her crawling away for her life till Dick comes in and saves her at the end of it. It was a good story, but ya. Not kind.

    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1
    You mention this variety and experimentation, but I look at her time as Batgirl since the n52 came, and I see two varieties: dark and reactive, and bright and bubbly tech villains.

    I don't see how DC's idiotic decision making (the reactions by fans and critics to SS, and the box office so far of Birds of Prey seem to bear my point up here) should make fans of Oracle say, "Welp, we're just wrong."
    None the less her time as Batgirl has seen a range in tones, content, different interpretations, and new world building. Centered on her for her. Things they refused to do with Oracle anymore.

    My point is about illustrating how DC views Oracle.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 02-11-2020 at 10:09 AM.

  15. #45
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    The reboot is to blame for everything. Had they not rebooted, they could've shown Barbara getting her op in Steph's book (she was a regular in that book anyway) and then gradually returning to action (helping Steph or the Birds of Prey when they're in trouble, but still serving as Oracle). If they wanted to revert Steph back to being Spoiler, that would've been a natural decision (just prior to a relaunch of Batgirl with Babs as the lead) instead of being enforced by an erasure from continuity and reintroduction several years later.
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