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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    Hey, I wasn't even knocking the movie. Simply stating that Harley Quinn is now the star of the Birds of Prey.

    Managing information and running superhero teams from a desktop is very 1995. It's also not really important that, that is Barbara Gordon. Could be a new character, could be anyone that Batman trusts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Even if Harley: BoP doesn’t turn out well, they will probably just self the brand then. Notice how the first reaction is to retitle to movie. Make sure people know it’s a Harley movie first, as if the title was the problem. Anyway Harley will be fine, BoP will take the real hit. So either way it’s probably not good for Oracle and BoPs prospects going forward.
    First of all I have to ask why you want Barbara to be separrated from the Birds of Prey alltogether, or for Harley to take over the franchise as their main character. There's no reason Barbara can't be their leader as Batgirl as she was in the Rebirth series. There are other better options for the Birds then being taken over by Harley or being shelved. Like just being a Black Canary/Huntress book or just having Babs on the team as Batgirl. Harley has the Suicide Squad, Gotham City Sirens, or they could even try giving her and her gang of friends from the DC streaming service show(so herself, Ivy, Clayface, King Shark, Kiteman and Dr Psycho) a team book. She doesn't need to be the Birds main character from now on in addition. If Batman can have the Justice league or the Outsiders, then Babs can and should have the Birds. It would seem to me that you just don't like reminders of Babs's time Oracle around, and her, as Batgirl, continuing to associate with and lead a superheroine team she created at a time when she couldn't be an active participant in their adventures is too uncomfortable for you.

    And this argument that having a character as full time computer hacking, support, strategy, team coordination was becoming outdated, that just popped up in the last page, is ridiculous. It's like the anti-oracle sentiment people are looking for a new argument. I can respect and understand why you don't want Babs in that role and prefer her to be an active superheroine as Batgirl. But at least be direct with it instead of reaching for another excuse.

    As noted Oracle wasn't just about being a computer person. But also a example of high profile disabled in comics. It isn't easy to replace. And it's not hard to see why. Disabling a preexisting character is highly problematic (and something I myself wouldn't want to do). Creating and introducing a new character with the intent to make them into Oracle would take a lot of real dedication to the concept, which it would seem that the creatives don't have. They probably could have had Frankie in the Oracle role by now for both Babs and the Birds of Prey by now if they did. It wouldn't have been the same but at least it would have been a legitimate attempt. But instead we have them repurposing it for a villainous AI. And if you like that AI as a character, well power to you, but its not "Oracle". The end result may just be this will have to let be as a problem as the DC universe can admitably get by without it. It's a shame, but there isn't a easy good fix, so we may be stuck.

    This really goes to show how panicky and over protective the the Anti-Oracle people can be. I don't think that anybody has actually suggested that Barbara should become redisabled or any method by which it could possibly be accomplished. Many, if not all of us, are content to leave her as Batgirl. And we acknowledge that any attempt to do so probably wouldn't even work. But appreciating and acknowledging the positives of her being Oracle, or talking about the problems that were created when she was initially moved back to Batgirl (most of which have been since fixed) is somehow interpreted as a threat to her continued status as Batgirl.

    Barbara isn't in any real danger of redisabled or even being removed permanently from the Batgirl mantle by any means in the main continuity from my point of view. If certain rumors about 5G featuring a mass age up of characters turns out to be true she might be temporarily aged out of the role, but I also have no doubt that such a mass age up will end up being rolled back. In which case she'll likely end up as Batgirl again. She's really protected by being the marketable iconic Batgirl, the way Bruce Wayne is Batman. Even when she was Oracle in the comics, most adaptations used her as Batgirl.

  2. #92
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    What I said had absolutely nothing to do with what I want. DC hitched BoP to the Harley horse. It is what it is. New BoP material will reflect that as we’re already seeing, and if it doesn’t work out then there probably just won’t be much new BoP material then.

    Don’t misunderstand, you will be hard pressed to find a bigger genuine Oracle fan then me on these boards. My support for her transition to Batgirl has nothing to do with disliking Oracle but out of frustration with what they were doing, or not doing, with Oracle.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 02-12-2020 at 02:39 PM.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    What I said had absolutely nothing to do with what I want. DC hitched BoP the the Harley horse. It is what it is. New BoP material will reflect that as we’re already seeing, and if it doesn’t work out then there probably just won’t be much new BoP material then.

    Don’t misunderstand, you will be hard pressed to find a bigger genuine Oracle fan then me on these boards. My support for her transition to Batgirl has nothing to do with disliking Oracle but out of frustration with what they were doing, or not doing, with Oracle.
    Well, I don't think the Harley hitch is as strong as some might think. Yeah there's the movie and some highly synergetic miniseries and a oneshot. But the movie is bombing and the other stuff is comparatively a drop in the bucket to their over all publishing history. Harley has plenty of other venues, and Black Canary and Huntress continuing to work together as Birds of Prey is a solid idea in and of it self, even without Barbara. I don't think Harley or bust is their only option, and sincerely hope the suits don't see it that way. The Birds future direction is up in the air so to speak. We'll have to see.

    Sorry if I read you wrong.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artemisfanboy View Post
    And this argument that having a character as full time computer hacking, support, strategy, team coordination was becoming outdated, that just popped up in the last page, is ridiculous. It's like the anti-oracle sentiment people are looking for a new argument. I can respect and understand why you don't want Babs in that role and prefer her to be an active superheroine as Batgirl. But at least be direct with it instead of reaching for another excuse.

    As noted Oracle wasn't just about being a computer person. But also a example of high profile disabled in comics. It isn't easy to replace.
    Very much this last part.

    I'd argue that the only high profile disabled in comics with a similar profile is Professor X of the X-Men, a character that I've never heard anyone asserting needs to be "undisabled" in order to be more than an "also-ran supporting character", as the Anti-Oracle crowd assert re Babs.

    Gee, I wonder why that would be...?

  5. #95
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    Professor X has been "undisabled" for like 20 years though. Which you don't hear much about how he should be put back in the chair to represent either.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 02-12-2020 at 03:51 PM.

  6. #96
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artemisfanboy View Post
    First of all I have to ask why you want Barbara to be separrated from the Birds of Prey alltogether, or for Harley to take over the franchise as their main character. There's no reason Barbara can't be their leader as Batgirl as she was in the Rebirth series. There are other better options for the Birds then being taken over by Harley or being shelved. Like just being a Black Canary/Huntress book or just having Babs on the team as Batgirl. Harley has the Suicide Squad, Gotham City Sirens, or they could even try giving her and her gang of friends from the DC streaming service show(so herself, Ivy, Clayface, King Shark, Kiteman and Dr Psycho) a team book. She doesn't need to be the Birds main character from now on in addition. If Batman can have the Justice league or the Outsiders, then Babs can and should have the Birds. It would seem to me that you just don't like reminders of Babs's time Oracle around, and her, as Batgirl, continuing to associate with and lead a superheroine team she created at a time when she couldn't be an active participant in their adventures is too uncomfortable for you.

    And this argument that having a character as full time computer hacking, support, strategy, team coordination was becoming outdated, that just popped up in the last page, is ridiculous. It's like the anti-oracle sentiment people are looking for a new argument. I can respect and understand why you don't want Babs in that role and prefer her to be an active superheroine as Batgirl. But at least be direct with it instead of reaching for another excuse.

    As noted Oracle wasn't just about being a computer person. But also a example of high profile disabled in comics. It isn't easy to replace. And it's not hard to see why. Disabling a preexisting character is highly problematic (and something I myself wouldn't want to do). Creating and introducing a new character with the intent to make them into Oracle would take a lot of real dedication to the concept, which it would seem that the creatives don't have. They probably could have had Frankie in the Oracle role by now for both Babs and the Birds of Prey by now if they did. It wouldn't have been the same but at least it would have been a legitimate attempt. But instead we have them repurposing it for a villainous AI. And if you like that AI as a character, well power to you, but its not "Oracle". The end result may just be this will have to let be as a problem as the DC universe can admitably get by without it. It's a shame, but there isn't a easy good fix, so we may be stuck.

    This really goes to show how panicky and over protective the the Anti-Oracle people can be. I don't think that anybody has actually suggested that Barbara should become redisabled or any method by which it could possibly be accomplished. Many, if not all of us, are content to leave her as Batgirl. And we acknowledge that any attempt to do so probably wouldn't even work. But appreciating and acknowledging the positives of her being Oracle, or talking about the problems that were created when she was initially moved back to Batgirl (most of which have been since fixed) is somehow interpreted as a threat to her continued status as Batgirl.

    Barbara isn't in any real danger of redisabled or even being removed permanently from the Batgirl mantle by any means in the main continuity from my point of view. If certain rumors about 5G featuring a mass age up of characters turns out to be true she might be temporarily aged out of the role, but I also have no doubt that such a mass age up will end up being rolled back. In which case she'll likely end up as Batgirl again. She's really protected by being the marketable iconic Batgirl, the way Bruce Wayne is Batman. Even when she was Oracle in the comics, most adaptations used her as Batgirl.
    Who's saying they WANT Harley Quinn to be the star of Birds of Prey? She just is now. There's a film out in theaters, a book on the shelves. I didn't produce those. I think it's an idiotic choice to tie Black Canary, an outright superhero who could support her own franchise, to Harley freaking Quinn. Like, of all the routes to take with these characters, this was the worst! Lean more into Black Canary, not Harley Quinn.
    Last edited by Flash Gordon; 02-13-2020 at 04:50 AM.

  7. #97
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Evil AI Oracle is horrendously ableistic. What does it say other than that people with disabilities are broken and morally deficient? To take what is an icon for many disabled people and twist her like that is grotesque, distasteful, and totally lacking in basic humanity.
    That Oracle is just an AI, not a person. Babs still is figuring it out. You gotta read the story.
    Last edited by Flash Gordon; 02-13-2020 at 04:37 AM.

  8. #98
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    But Unfortunatelly they don´t respect it..

    Steph only appeared in Young Justice because is Tim girlfriend... Bendis even confirmed in one interview that he CAN´T make BIG THINGS with her for DC FAULT

    And now look the BIRDS OF PREY.. HARLEY is here.. WTF? Why her? She is everywhere.. That was one good chance for Steph and Cass who is her friend is here. I am even happy to listen this because I am tired of Harley:

    https://edition.cnn.com/2020/02/09/m...ice/index.html


    Steph can be relevant in YOUNG JUSTICE but neither in other comics
    Last edited by adrikito; 02-13-2020 at 07:05 AM.

  9. #99
    Fantastic Member Gotham citizen's Avatar
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    King said: «I killed Alfred for DC's fault!»
    Bendis said: «I can't use Stephanie for DC's fault!»
    How much is DC screw up, if it is blamed (rightly or not) by its own writer?

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gotham citizen View Post
    King said: «I killed Alfred for DC's fault!»
    Bendis said: «I can't use Stephanie for DC's fault!»
    How much is DC screw up, if it is blamed (rightly or not) by its own writer?
    Bendis mentioned that DC had future plans for Steph(or something like that) and for this he was unable to use her like he wanted..


    But Watching something like BIRDS OF PREY with HARLEY.. I DOUBT IT... I would not be surprised to be in SUMMER and continue without news about Steph.

  11. #101
    Fantastic Member Gotham citizen's Avatar
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    Say: «Bendis even confirmed in one interview that he CAN´T make BIG THINGS with her for DC FAULT» and say: «Bendis mentioned that DC had future plans for Steph(or something like that) and for this he was unable to use her like he wanted» aren't exactly the same thing. Anyway I don't trust more to Bendis: when he wrote the X-men he said he would do a lot of things, but then he did nothing of that.

  12. #102
    Extraordinary Member adrikito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gotham citizen View Post
    Say: «Bendis even confirmed in one interview that he CAN´T make BIG THINGS with her for DC FAULT» and say: «Bendis mentioned that DC had future plans for Steph(or something like that) and for this he was unable to use her like he wanted» aren't exactly the same thing. Anyway I don't trust more to Bendis: when he wrote the X-men he said he would do a lot of things, but then he did nothing of that.
    I read that long time ago I did not remember it correctly

    Like you with Bendis I know that I can not trust with DC with Steph.


    I am not happy with Bendis neither.. To insult Damian in Legion Superheroes 3(again) I prefer not see him using or mentioning him again. All the Hype to end insulting his fans.

    In superman we had TRUTH(a mistake) few years ago. Now Bendis revealed Superman identity again.. Something that we knew that it was one bad idea.
    Last edited by adrikito; 02-13-2020 at 07:48 AM.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    Who's saying they WANT Harley Quinn to be the star of Birds of Prey? She just is now. There's a film out in theaters, a book on the shelves. I didn't produce those. I think it's an idiotic choice to tie Black Canary, an outright superhero who could support her own franchise, to Harley freaking Quinn. Like, of all the routes to take with these characters, this was the worst! Lean more into Black Canary, not Harley Quinn.
    The books exist because of the movie.

    And I don't think that the comic part of DC had much say in the movie.

    And honestly I still think that they went for Birds of Prey for the movie was that Margot Robbie wanted to be the clear star of the movie, which would have been harder in something like Gotham City Sirens were Harley Quinn is traditionally more a the wacky comic relief character.

  14. #104
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    The books exist because of the movie.

    And I don't think that the comic part of DC had much say in the movie.

    And honestly I still think that they went for Birds of Prey for the movie was that Margot Robbie wanted to be the clear star of the movie, which would have been harder in something like Gotham City Sirens were Harley Quinn is traditionally more a the wacky comic relief character.
    I forgot about Gotham City Sirens, that's a great idea! A solo Black Canary movie and a Gotham City Sirens with Harley and Ivy would have been the move!

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Professor X has been "undisabled" for like 20 years though. Which you don't hear much about how he should be put back in the chair to represent either.
    But when most people think of him, they think of him as a guy in a wheelchair.
    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    That Oracle is just an AI, not a person. Babs still is figuring it out. You gotta read the story.
    But it's still using the name, which is the issue.

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