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  1. #121
    Fantastic Member Gotham citizen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    I use Babsgirl as a shorthand for Babs-as-Batgirl. Batgod is forum slang for the current overpowered and prepared for everything Batman, capable of doing and overcoming everything. So I formed Babsgod as an analogue to that.
    Thank you. I have suspected that, but I prefer be sure rather than take something for granted and made a mistake.

    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    No, this is more how Babs is perceived and treated by the story, and not really so much by the role she plays as either Batgirl or Oracle. I began to think of the wheelchair as a symbol back with Mairghread Scott's Batgirl #27:

    Attachment 93149

    Because the way that Scott calls back to Babs's history there makes Babs into a survivor of TKJ rather than a victim of TKJ, and it manages to do so by using her wheelchair and the way Babs thinks about it. With the help of the wheelchair, Scott managed something that other modern Batgirl writers has failed to do: present an experienced Babsgirl that wasn't defined by trauma, something like e.g. King tried to do in Heroes in Crisis but failed at.

    The wheelchair served to shield Oracle from TKJ, and Scott showed that it can be used for Babsgirl as well. As such, it serves a valuable narrative function.
    I don't read Batgirl (for now), so I failed to understand what you meant, but your comment doesn't contradict mine (at least I don't think so), in fact I think the way a character is perceived and treated by the story is related to the role he plays. I didn't write: «…how she faced up and overcame the problem of her paralysis…» for nothing, but exactly because the way she was treated by the story made her great and she was treaded in that way because she became Oracle: if a character doesn't have a role in the stories, he simply disappears from the book. So I think that keeping for Barbara the identity of Oracle, even if she no longer needs a wheelchair, even she is act like a batgirl can help to maintain her anchored to her past, not like a victim but like a survivor who overcame the adversities of her life and this can make her stronger, greater. In other words I think the identity of Oracle can act as shield at the same way you suggested for the wheelchair; the two things can be used together.
    Last edited by Gotham citizen; 02-14-2020 at 06:42 AM.

  2. #122
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the illustrious mr. kenway View Post
    There's always a Batgirl Eternal .
    I'd love Batgirl Eternal, and I think Tynion could do something cool with the idea, but I dunno if he is interested. I think League of Batgirls or Batgirl Inc have a bit more general writer appeal. But the general idea, of Babs, Cass, and Steph, is one I think really has potential.

    Quote Originally Posted by gregpersons View Post
    Yeah, no. The general audience is far more comics literate now than ever before and you're underestimating the way information disseminates and the overall reach of Batman media. You don't need to have read the comics to know Barbara Gordon and be a fan of her as a character.

    Why call the film Birds Of Prey at all, if the name has no value other than what the marquee gives it?

    It's not an outlandish idea to say that if Barbara Gordon were in the movie titled "Birds of Prey ... Harley Quinn", there would've had more interest. The movie would've had a headliner to complement Margot's Harley and unite the BOP team characters. Even as Oracle; people know Oracle*, and especially if she's clearly presented as pre- or about-to-be- Batgirl, if there's a promise of a future Batgirl film, again, that's going to drive up interest... from casual fans of Babs or Batgirl in general, and from people who like the BOP brand the movie is trading on.

    *The Arkham video game series is huge. "The Killing Joke" is one of the most popular comics ever and though it doesn't introduce Oracle, it's her backstory. I'd say most normies under 50 know Oracle and Nightwing.
    I think Birds of Prey was a choice made because it's a niche brand that they wanted to redefine as a Harley supporting brand. I don't think it worked, though, sadly (or happily, depending on what you think of that idea). I think the Batgirl brand is much stronger than the Birds of Prey brand. The Oracle brand, because of Young Justice season 3 and the Arkham games, and even the future Batman cartoon episode, and the live action tv show, is probably stronger than the Birds by itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    I just read the entire eight pages of this thread, and I have to say that there are interesting arguments and points coming from both sides, but the majority of you are ignoring the big elephant in the room:

    Yes, Steph and Cass should have their times as Batgirl restored. But that doesn't have to come at the detriment of Babs being Batgirl... and then it verges into the question of Oracle. I agree that at large Oracle had a larger role in the DCU than Batgirl ever has and probably ever will, but the thing about that is this: why does she have to either/or as opposed to both? That is to say, why does she have to exclusively be Batgirl or Oracle when she could just be both of them? It's been well established - especially since the Burnside Batgirl run by Cameron, Stewart, and Tarr - that Babs was Oracle in this continuity and that she still retains the skills that made her Oracle, and presumably the resources as well. Since dropping the Oracle codename and becoming Batgirl, "Oracle" has been used for the wrong purposes twice, and I can see every reason that Babs might have to reclaim it.

    Show her out on the field as Batgirl, doing her thing and stopping the bad guys while using her smarts and then on the low also playing mission control for others. Perhaps use the angle of the current AI but not as a villainous take, and maybe make it more of a VI than anything, in order for her to maintain both roles. She can be Batgirl and she can be Oracle rather easily, there doesn't have to be a distinction made between the two of them. I'd also put her back in the chair in her everyday life - say the chip in her back has failed, and that she's been restrained to the chair once again - but with an augmented suit ala Batwing that allows her to walk and operate as a hero as Batgirl on the low. It adds another level of comfort to her secret identity.

    And barring any of that, if we absolutely had to have a new Oracle, it should be a disabled character - ideally a disabled woman. Frankie Charles would be the first choice in current continuity, but with 5G presumably bringing everything back I'd also settle for Wendy Harris.
    I mean, I've been pushing for League of Batgirls with Babs as Batgirl, leading and mentoring the other two, for 6 years now.

    Frankie is a good idea on paper, but I'd want a better writer than Fletcher doing the series. Harris would be perfect as well, though I have no idea what her status is.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
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  3. #123
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    (The Harley Quinn movie)

    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I think Birds of Prey was a choice made because it's a niche brand that they wanted to redefine as a Harley supporting brand. I don't think it worked, though, sadly (or happily, depending on what you think of that idea). I think the Batgirl brand is much stronger than the Birds of Prey brand. The Oracle brand, because of Young Justice season 3 and the Arkham games, and even the future Batman cartoon episode, and the live action tv show, is probably stronger than the Birds by itself.
    I think the reason given early back when the movie was announced is the simplest one: WB was developing a bunch of scripts, and the one with Harley Quinn and the Birds of Prey was chosen as the strongest one.

    If we look at the ending of the movie, it's pretty clear that it's set up with Black Canary, Huntress, and Renee forming the Birds of Prey, and Harley off doing her own stuff somewhere else. There is no "Birds of Prey" team in the movie itself, only lots of references to individual persons as birds.

    So the movie sets up the possibility of a future Birds of Prey movie, but gives no indication that Harley needs to be there for it.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  4. #124
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    I think the reason given early back when the movie was announced is the simplest one: WB was developing a bunch of scripts, and the one with Harley Quinn and the Birds of Prey was chosen as the strongest one.

    If we look at the ending of the movie, it's pretty clear that it's set up with Black Canary, Huntress, and Renee forming the Birds of Prey, and Harley off doing her own stuff somewhere else. There is no "Birds of Prey" team in the movie itself, only lots of references to individual persons as birds.

    So the movie sets up the possibility of a future Birds of Prey movie, but gives no indication that Harley needs to be there for it.
    That is true about the ending of the movie, but those characters are not given enough screentime or attention (in casting and costuming) to really be a movie setup. Maybe a streaming service TV show, which I'd love (though I'd personally want to just focus on Helena and Dinah, with rotating other Birds).

    As for the title/branding...I have no real idea what was going through people's minds. I think the notion floated by Grace Randolph that Robie as producer wanted an all female brand, but didn't want characters as recognizable as Poison Ivy or especially Catwoman, makes sense, so the Birds were chosen as supporting roles to not outshine Harley.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
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  5. #125
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    That is true about the ending of the movie, but those characters are not given enough screentime or attention (in casting and costuming) to really be a movie setup. Maybe a streaming service TV show, which I'd love (though I'd personally want to just focus on Helena and Dinah, with rotating other Birds).
    The Birds got more space than Diana did in BvS. Not an analogous situation, I know, but I think WB was still serious about lots of interconnected movies back when would become HQ: BoP was in script-writing and pre-production.

    My impression from Margot Robbie from the various interviews I've seen is that she is serious about paying forward, and on the need for a HQ movie to have real strong characters for her to interact with.

    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    As for the title/branding...I have no real idea what was going through people's minds. I think the notion floated by Grace Randolph that Robie as producer wanted an all female brand, but didn't want characters as recognizable as Poison Ivy or especially Catwoman, makes sense, so the Birds were chosen as supporting roles to not outshine Harley.
    My impression of Grace Randolph is that she has made0 stirring shit up into a part of her livelihood.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  6. #126
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    The Birds got more space than Diana did in BvS. Not an analogous situation, I know, but I think WB was still serious about lots of interconnected movies back when would become HQ: BoP was in script-writing and pre-production.

    My impression from Margot Robbie from the various interviews I've seen is that she is serious about paying forward, and on the need for a HQ movie to have real strong characters for her to interact with.

    My impression of Grace Randolph is that she has made0 stirring shit up into a part of her livelihood.
    You're not necessarily wrong about any of that, but my counter question is: why no Catwoman or Ivy, since the movie works a lot better within a Gotham City Sirens framework (except for the tag at the end of the Birds working together, the main characters aren't very justice or heroically oriented).

    Which is a bit off the main thrust of the thread, concerning the legacy of Batgirls.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews, Stephanie Brown Discord

  7. #127
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    You're not necessarily wrong about any of that, but my counter question is: why no Catwoman or Ivy, since the movie works a lot better within a Gotham City Sirens framework (except for the tag at the end of the Birds working together, the main characters aren't very justice or heroically oriented).

    Which is a bit off the main thrust of the thread, concerning the legacy of Batgirls.
    I remember reading that the reason they went with BoP was rather simple. They had a GCS script and a BoP script that each could take Harley Quinn, and the BoP script was judged to be the stronger one. Things need not be more complicated than that.

    Robbie has mentioned in lots of interviews that she loves the relationship between Harley and Ivy, and would love to do a movie with the two (example), so I really don't put credence in the idea that Margot Robbie didn't want to be outshone by Catwoman or Poison Ivy.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  8. #128
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    DCeased Unkillables #1 shows just how we are reminded of Cassandra Cain Batgirl and how she can exist alongside to deceased Barbara Gordon Batgirl. What I'm trying to say is that there is more room in the main DCU for more than one Batgirl going on in Gotham, right ?

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