Dc should really respect and restore the legacy of Batgirl and what it means.

[Flash Gordon]

Babs is Batgirl, and she's great. She's deeply iconic and her book is a lot of fun.

The sooner the Killing Joke is forgotten, the better- and that includes Oracle. I like Cassandra Cain but Black Bat is a great alias for her. Steph is Spoiler, no need to be Batgirl.

[Oberon]

I just started reading this and was going to say that, but you beat me to it.

If we're talking about 'female Robins', like the first post in this thread, well, Betty or Bette, is the first, down to the costume even.

[scary harpy]

Babs is Batgirl, and she's great. She's deeply iconic and her book is a lot of fun.

The sooner the Killing Joke is forgotten, the better- and that includes Oracle. I like Cassandra Cain but Black Bat is a great alias for her. Steph is Spoiler, no need to be Batgirl.

Agreed.

I like Cassandra too but I never liked the name Black Bat for her; Orphan is alright I guess.

She once had an alias as Kasumi ("misty") when she was Batman's spy on the Justice League Elite; she wore a belt of Thanagarian metal and got shadow powers from it. I see her as the Shadow of the Batgirl.

I really like the Kasumi alias for Cassandra.

[Cmbmool]

I find it really disrespectful that all of the boys get to keep their legacy as Robin, but it’s such a big no-no for Bette, Cassandra, and Stephanie. It annoys me how we keep bringing back stuff from pre-flashpoint into the canon, but restoring the girls’ history is such a big no-no.

Well said. Truly sexist bias over at DC Comics.

[Cmbmool]

Babs is Batgirl, and she's great. She's deeply iconic and her book is a lot of fun.

The sooner the Killing Joke is forgotten, the better- and that includes Oracle. I like Cassandra Cain but Black Bat is a great alias for her. Steph is Spoiler, no need to be Batgirl.

So you rather forget the impact that Oracle had to people with disabilities ? Beings who can’t move and aren’t never going to be moving again ? That positive impact of the character existence ?

[kjn]

So you rather forget the impact that Oracle had to people with disabilities ? Beings who can’t move and aren’t never going to be moving again ? That positive impact of the character existence ?

I think I've written about this over in the Babs appreciation thread, and reinstating Babs as Oracle is trickier than than I think most people here imagine.

For better or worse, Babsgirl has been around for ten years now. A lot of people are used to her as Batgirl now. To place her back in Oracle's chair would require a story to make it stick. DC would then be required to make a choice: either accept the ugliness of TKJ and the implied critique of DC's storytelling done by Ostrander and Yale, or attempt to create a new story for how Babsgirl turns into Oracle. If you think following up Watchmen was a tough act, that would be as nothing compared to this.

Another issue is that you might end up with a similar problem as when she was reverted to Batgirl. Oracle is an old role that she would be returned to. I don't think it will run into the same narrative issues of what to do with the character as was the case for Babsgirl, but I think you'd need some really good—and socially aware—writing team to do a long-term plan here, and stick to it. And frankly that's in short supply at DC right now.

In any case I'm very interested to see what Marieke Nijkamp can come up with in The Oracle Code.

[AmiMizuno]

I find Dc doesn’t really care about Batfam that not Bruce. Dido never cares

[Flash Gordon]

So you rather forget the impact that Oracle had to people with disabilities ? Beings who can’t move and aren’t never going to be moving again ? That positive impact of the character existence ?

I'd rather forget the ugliness of TKJ, a story that Alan Moore himself doesn't even care for.

I'm all for characters with disabilities, I'd like to see a lot more of that in mainstream comics- but I also want Barbara Gordon to be allowed to be a female superhero with a narrative beyond TKJ and the misogyny of that story.

Batgirl of Burnside was a big hit, and a wonderful forward movement for Babs. The Rebirth stuff was fun. Castellucci is doing amazing work on the book now.

[Katana500]

I'd like it if they fully made Frankie Oracle. She could make a cool supporting character in not just Babs book but across multiple books set in Gotham.

[scary harpy]

So you rather forget the impact that Oracle had to people with disabilities ? Beings who can’t move and aren’t never going to be moving again ? That positive impact of the character existence ?

I have not forgotten the positive impact that Oracle had to people with disabilities.

I see no reason why Barbara has to be Oracle...especially because of the awful TKJ.

(I also see no reason why Roy Harper has to forever be a drug addict because of 1 poorly researched story decades ago. DC has a history of not learning from mistakes.)

DC can create a new character to be Oracle. I prefer Babs as Batgirl.

I'd like it if they fully made Frankie Oracle. She could make a cool supporting character in not just Babs book but across multiple books set in Gotham.

I'd like that too.

[Digifiend]

I'd like it if they fully made Frankie Oracle. She could make a cool supporting character in not just Babs book but across multiple books set in Gotham.

Yeah, good call. Direct link to the original Oracle, and happens to be disabled, so it counters the complaints about Babs being back on her feet.

Agreed.

I like Cassandra too but I never liked the name Black Bat for her; Orphan is alright I guess.

She once had an alias as Kasumi ("misty") when she was Batman's spy on the Justice League Elite; she wore a belt of Thanagarian metal and got shadow powers from it. I see her as the Shadow of the Batgirl.

I really like the Kasumi alias for Cassandra.

The name Orphan is inappropriate now, as her original origin was restored meaning her mother's actually still alive. Kasumi does sound like a good name for someone described as a ninja though. If they're not going to make her a Bat again, that name would fit her better.

I find it really disrespectful that all of the boys get to keep their legacy as Robin, but it’s such a big no-no for Bette, Cassandra, and Stephanie. It annoys me how we keep bringing back stuff from pre-flashpoint into the canon, but restoring the girls’ history is such a big no-no.

Cass, Steph, and Tim know the truth. The girls learned at the end of the Rebirth Detective Comics run, and Tim will have learned when Zatanna restored his memories (which he needed doing so that he'd remember Superboy and Impulse). 5G's timeline extension will probably fully return their history to continuity.

[ngroove]

Question, according to intent of this thread: even if, say, Cassandra and Stephanie reinstates as Batgirls, will that also mean Barbara still remains Batgirl also?

I am not trying to shake anyone, but honestly, I prefer Barbara as Batgirl, a costumed action hero, over Oracle, whose always bored me.


So, in other words, if Cassandra and Stephanie becomes Batgirls again, fine, as long as Barbara maintains herself as Batgirl as well.

[millernumber1]

Question, according to intent of this thread: even if, say, Cassandra and Stephanie reinstates as Batgirls, will that also mean Barbara still remains Batgirl also?

I am not trying to shake anyone, but honestly, I prefer Barbara as Batgirl, a costumed action hero, over Oracle, whose always bored me.


So, in other words, if Cassandra and Stephanie becomes Batgirls again, fine, as long as Barbara maintains herself as Batgirl as well.

That's why my biggest and most consistent hope (and trying to get other fans on board) is the League of Batgirls or Batgirl Inc, with Babs leading and training the other two Batgirls in a team.

[Cmbmool]

Question, according to intent of this thread: even if, say, Cassandra and Stephanie reinstates as Batgirls, will that also mean Barbara still remains Batgirl also?

I am not trying to shake anyone, but honestly, I prefer Barbara as Batgirl, a costumed action hero, over Oracle, whose always bored me.


So, in other words, if Cassandra and Stephanie becomes Batgirls again, fine, as long as Barbara maintains herself as Batgirl as well.

To answer your question I would say yes and make it a long overdue team book for the concept of being Batgirls to Batman.

[godisawesome]

I have not forgotten the positive impact that Oracle had to people with disabilities.

I see no reason why Barbara has to be Oracle...especially because of the awful TKJ.

(I also see no reason why Roy Harper has to forever be a drug addict because of 1 poorly researched story decades ago. DC has a history of not learning from mistakes.)

DC can create a new character to be Oracle. I prefer Babs as Batgirl.



I'd like that too.

I think I’d have to say that DC will probably never have as high profile or significant impact that Babs did as Oracle for people with disabilities.

There’s also the small problem that Babs had more dignity and significance as Oracle than she does currently as Batgirl, though that’s more the result of the methodology for her return and the limitations they’ve enforced on the Batgirl role in modern DC versus the way Oracle was being portrayed before the New 52.

Oracle was for all intents and purposes Batman’s greatest lieutenant, the Intelligence Tsar for all DC superheroes, and the leader of the Birds of a Prey, like a general.

There *was* a way to move Babs forward into Batgirl from Oracle, even to try and incorporate some of her status as someone disabled into her new life, and to maintain Babs’s status and progression. They could have tried to follow up Ostrander making Babs’s story after TKJ one of growth and evolution into greatness with one of their own.

Instead, they moved Babs back into Batgirl, which to me was a mistake. It effectively made her come off as a second stringer for the Batfamily who coasts ont he fact that the 60’s TV show gave her greater exposure, instead of making her a at least Dick’s equal (since they maintained his term as Batman, even if they refuse to acknowledge it).

And to be frank, I think DC itself has shown they don’t respect Babs as Batgirl as much as they respected her as Oracle.

Oracle references The Killing Joke on a Suicide Squad cover by brandishing her own gun and saying her own version of “Smile.” Batgirl Babs was going to reference TKJ by having her posed next to the Joker, crying while he smeared blood on her lips.

They really should have had Oracle undergo surgery in the comic, have a period of rehabilitation in the comics, then reassume her mantle as Batgirl, but maintain her power and prestige as Oracle as well; at least then, they could transition her in a way that still incorporated some of the daily struggles of recovery to make up for getting rid of a great disabled character.

It would have taken time, but Babs shouldn’t have been “fixed” into Batgirl and then had what was an illustrious run as Oracle ignored for years.