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  1. #46
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Being the new Batgirl’s Obi Wan is far from an important role in the grand scheme of the DC Universe. The only thing she was vitally important to was helping to establish the new Batgirl. Make her Batgirl again, how degrading, making her the new Batgirl’s Obi Wan sidekick, she’s ‘vitally important’. Sure...
    And struggling to just get back on track, a rather stale track at that, when every one around her are progressing on new tracks, is not something to commend by any means. This is a trap DC does. They are doing it with Nightwing and Ric right now. They defeat fans bases to the point they celebrate when they just do the same old same old again.
    Babs wasn't some sidekick to Steph. She was a mentor and important figure in her life just like she was for Cass, and she was basically the co-lead of that book with almost as much screentime as Steph had, and she even got some character development too.

    She was in a supporting role, but it was far from a bad or inconsequential one. I fail to see how it was degrading unless being a mentor to a younger protagonist is degrading. But if so, then it didn't start with Steph.
    None the less her time as Batgirl has seen a range in tones, content, different interpretations, and new world building. Centered on her for her. Things they refused to do with Oracle anymore.

    My point is about illustrating how DC views Oracle.
    Like miller said, it's really only been two very different takes and tones on the book. Right now the books are walking back away from the Burnside tone but it still feels like the title hasn't quite found it's proper footing or on a consistent way of depicting Babs.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Babs wasn't some sidekick to Steph. She was a mentor and important figure in her life just like she was for Cass, and she was basically the co-lead of that book with almost as much screentime as Steph had, and she even got some character development too.

    She was in a supporting role, but it was far from a bad or inconsequential one. I fail to see how it was degrading unless being a mentor to a younger protagonist is degrading. But if so, then it didn't start with Steph.
    Yes, "co-lead” in Batgirl. How important Oracle was.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier
    Like miller said, it's really only been two very different takes and tones on the book. Right now the books are walking back away from the Burnside tone but it still feels like the title hasn't quite found it's proper footing or on a consistent way of depicting Babs.
    There was the New 52 darker take, to the lighter modern age young adult Burnside take, then the Saturday morning cartoon Rebirth take, and now the middle ground current take. We’ve gotten different setting from Gotham, Burnside, to globe trotting. New supporting cast members like Alysia and Frankie. All centered around her for her. I know being Batgirl is a demotion from being the ‘co-lead’ in Batgirl , but they tried more then just two things with her as Batgirl.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 02-11-2020 at 12:45 PM.

  3. #48
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Being the new Batgirl’s Obi Wan is far from an important role in the grand scheme of the DC Universe. The only thing she was vitally important to was helping to establish the new Batgirl. Make her Batgirl again, how degrading, making her the new Batgirl’s Obi Wan sidekick, she’s ‘vitally important’. Sure...
    And struggling to just get back on track, a rather stale track at that, when every one around her are progressing on new tracks, is not something to commend by any means. This is a trap DC does. They are doing it with Nightwing and Ric right now. They defeat fans bases to the point they celebrate when they just do the same old same old again.

    And Black Mirror was rather brutal to Oracle. She was tortured and ridiculed, with a pretty graphic scene of her crawling away for her life till Dick comes in and saves her at the end of it. It was a good story, but ya. Not kind.

    None the less her time as Batgirl has seen a range in tones, content, different interpretations, and new world building. Centered on her for her. Things they refused to do with Oracle anymore.

    My point is about illustrating how DC views Oracle.
    Oracle in Steph's Batgirl run was never "only" the Obi-Wan (reread The Flood), or a "sidekick." Framing her that way is not true to the text. The idea that her reactive, villain centric Simone run, or her goofy, repetitive Burnside and beyond runs are better stories is certainly a perspective. I think you're right - Babs gets more visibility as a solo character - but visibility isn't the same as good stories or importance. Burnside, by removing her from Gotham, made her even less relevant to most of what happened. And going through the same rotation of bad love interests, weak tech villains, and every now and then a look at a better villain like James Jr, isn't any less stale than a hypothetical third year as mentor to Steph - with, I would point out, her own plotlines, or leading a campaign against Junior in Birds of Prey.

    A story can be brutal without negatively impacting audience perception of a character. And I think Black Mirror showed Babs as a pretty great character.

    Illustrating DC's limitations, not that Oracle is a bad character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Yes, "co-lead” in Batgirl. How important Oracle was. Are you guys serious with this?

    There was the New 52 darker take, to the lighter modern age young adult Burnside take, then the Saturday morning cartoon Rebirth take, and the middle ground current take. We’ve gotten different setting from Gotham, Burnside, to globe trotting. New supporting cast members like Alysia and Frankie. All centered around her for her. I know being Batgirl is a demotion from being the ‘co-lead’ in Batgirl , but they tried more then just two things with her as Batgirl.
    Yes, we're serious. Obviously, you have great contempt for the way Oracle was portrayed in Birds of Prey vol 2 and Batgirl vol 3, but that is not a universal reaction.

    What you see as "variety" to me are frantic attempts to mimic the two central tones (dark and reactive vs. frothy tech-savvy) filtered through writers of varying levels of skill.
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  4. #49
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    TKJ took away Barbara Gordon's agency as a character, made her a prop for the narrative of male characters. Oracle was an attempt to salvage what could be salvaged from that and actually use her character, but at best she could be a mentor to another Batgirl or a voice in Batman's headset- not much else.

    Babs has a right to be her own character and have her own narratives. Had more been done with Oracle back then, maybe things would be different? Sure, having characters with major disabilities is vital- but did it have to be Barbara Gordon/Batgirl? A fun character who is great female empowerment and isn't tied to Batman in a super big way. Plenty of other characters to be created or used as Oracle or something akin.
    Last edited by Flash Gordon; 02-11-2020 at 12:57 PM.

  5. #50
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    TKJ took away Barbara Gordon's agency as a character, made her a prop for the narrative of male characters. Oracle was an attempt to salvage what could be salvaged from that and actually use her character, but at best she could be a mentor to another Batgirl or a voice in Batman's headset- not much else.

    Babs has a right to be her own character and have her own narratives. Had more been done with Oracle back then, maybe things would be different?
    I mean, she ran her own Superhero team of super-ladies and became the informational and computer backbone of the Superhero community...so she was still pretty active beyond helping the current Batgirl or helping Batman.

    Did Babs not have her own character and narrative under Chuck Dixon and Gail Simone?

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Oracle in Steph's Batgirl run was never "only" the Obi-Wan (reread The Flood), or a "sidekick." Framing her that way is not true to the text. The idea that her reactive, villain centric Simone run, or her goofy, repetitive Burnside and beyond runs are better stories is certainly a perspective. I think you're right - Babs gets more visibility as a solo character - but visibility isn't the same as good stories or importance. Burnside, by removing her from Gotham, made her even less relevant to most of what happened. And going through the same rotation of bad love interests, weak tech villains, and every now and then a look at a better villain like James Jr, isn't any less stale than a hypothetical third year as mentor to Steph - with, I would point out, her own plotlines, or leading a campaign against Junior in Birds of Prey.

    A story can be brutal without negatively impacting audience perception of a character. And I think Black Mirror showed Babs as a pretty great character.

    Illustrating DC's limitations, not that Oracle is a bad character.
    It is true to then text. Babs role in Batgirl was to help Steph on her journey as Batgirl, and in turn she fond her her own happiness again. It wasn’t her story though, it was Batgirl’s and she was ultimately Steph’s guide for the first year of it. Steph as Batgirl wasn’t so important though that being part of it made Oracle important.

    Black Mirror showed Babs as a victim. Great horror story, but Babs role in it was what it was.

    Oracle isn’t a bad character.

    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Yes, we're serious. Obviously, you have great contempt for the way Oracle was portrayed in Birds of Prey vol 2 and Batgirl vol 3, but that is not a universal reaction.

    What you see as "variety" to me are frantic attempts to mimic the two central tones (dark and reactive vs. frothy tech-savvy) filtered through writers of varying levels of skill.
    Which is one of the saddest and most frustrating things about what Oracle became. Not just that DC didn’t want more for her, but that readers didn’t either. Put her in the perceived way of others though, rather then their support, watch out.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 02-11-2020 at 01:47 PM.

  7. #52
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    It is interesting seeing how this thread went from wanting Cassandra and Stephanie's Batgirl history's more fully restored, to a discussion on the merits of Babs as Batgirl vs Babs as Oracle. And also representative of the logic and over protectiveness that led to much of the collateral damage with the New 52's execution of her recovery. Steph and Cass were wiped from existence as was the Birds of Prey's history(and with it a large part of her career as Oracle). If it wasn't for Simone pushing back against the idea as much as possible, the people who desire to see Killing Joke and Barbara's career as Oracle forgotten and buried probably would have gotten their wish and Barbara never would have become disabled or been Oracle at any point in the The New 52's history. A lot of good came out of her being Oracle and it deserves to be remembered.

    Now, most of this damage has since been repaired. Steph and Cass recovered and came back from being pointlessly erased to avoid "competing" with Barbara. They at least have their memories of their times as Batgirl restored, and it's quite possible their histories will be restored in universe as well. The Birds were damaged, partly by losing Oracle as part of their team dynamic, but more by having their history wiped. If New 52 Birds of Prey had initially continued on directly from the previous series with Barbara getting back from her surgery and taking a position as field leader instead of mission control things would have been better. But despite the rebirth series initially continuing on from the New 52 they eventually retconned that the original pre-flashpoint Birds of Prey team existed with Barbara disbanding the team after her recovery. So I really consider it all water under the bridge now. Rebooting things again to excise Killing joke and her career as Oracle would risk breaking things again. Likewise trying to re-disable Barbara in universe would likely not be a very good idea.

    The real remaining damage as been the removal of Oracle as a high profile example of disabled representation. The only real possible fix for this would be to create a replacement for Barbara as Oracle. Frankie could be moved into the Oracle role and identity(it would probably be the best option at this point working in the confines of the current continuity), but if that's their intention, they are dragging their heels on it. The less said about that evil AI calling itself Oracle currently the better. I don't feel re-disabling Barbara would even provide a solution to this problem as it wouldn't be likely to stick and we'd be right back to where we started.

    Bottom line, I find it's better overall to leave things as they are with Babs currently as Batgirl, with Oracle part of her history, and try to fix the remaining problem of disabled representation with a replacement Oracle.

    Back to the original point of the thread, Yes. If all the Robins can be acknowledged as being in continuity and being Robin, so can the Batgirls. Cass, Steph, and even Betty.

  8. #53
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    I dont know. Form the looks of things Oracle has become exclusively tied to Barbara Gordon in the eyes of the fanbase. Any attempt at replacing her isnt going to stick IMO

  9. #54
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    It is true to then text. Babs role in Batgirl was to help Steph on her journey as Batgirl, and in turn she fond her her own happiness again. It wasn’t her story though, it was Batgirl’s and she was ultimately Steph’s guide for the first year of it. Steph as Batgirl wasn’t so important though that being part of it made Oracle important.
    And that is somehow degrading? She had her own story in the book even if she wasn't the main character, but for a supporting character that's still a lot. But Babs wasn't a main character even in Cass' run because she didn't need to be. It didn't make her less important.
    Which is one of the saddest and most frustrating things about what Oracle became. Not just that DC didn’t want more for her, but that readers didn’t either. Put her in the perceived way of others though, rather then their support, watch out though.
    I don't see where people say they didn't want more from Oracle, just disagreement on whether she was handled well.

    If anything I wish more people wanted more from Barbara Gordon as Batgirl then what we're currently getting. Something that lived up to the potential and importance she had as Oracle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baseman View Post
    I dont know. Form the looks of things Oracle has become exclusively tied to Barbara Gordon in the eyes of the fanbase. Any attempt at replacing her isnt going to stick IMO
    You can't know unless you try. There hasn't been any attempt at replacing her as Oracle. Barbara is exclusively tied to Oracle because she's been the only Oracle(once again ignoring that evil AI calling itself Oracle which is far cry from the concept and role).

  11. #56
    Incredible Member Gotham citizen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artemisfanboy View Post
    It is interesting seeing how this thread went from wanting Cassandra and Stephanie's Batgirl history's more fully restored, to a discussion on the merits of Babs as Batgirl vs Babs as Oracle. And also representative of the logic and over protectiveness that led to much of the collateral damage with the New 52's execution of her recovery.
    […]
    Yes, I think all this mess came from the New 52 initiative, because it wasn't born from a strong idea about how they (the DC staff) can improve their comic giving value to their character and how these character can be used at the best to satisfy all readers' tastes, but instead it was a hurried initiative to boost the sales.
    I prefer Barbara in the role of Oracle and Stephanie in the role of Batgirl, because having read the X-men I saw how a character on a wheelchair in a support role can become the core of an entire franchise (it happened with Xavier) and I see the same potential in Barbara/Oracle. Likewise I see an huge potential in Stephanie/Batgirl, because she is the Cluemaster's daughter and I think the story of the daughter of a criminal who choose to fight her father and his world (I don't know what is the role of Cluemaster in the "New 52 universe") is extremely strong, strong enough to support a title better than the story of the daughter of a commissioner who chose to fight the crime; I think Cassandra works well like a female Robin.
    This is why I would love see Barbara in the role of Oracle, Stephany in the role of Batgirl and why I don't like the syllogism: Barbara was degraded when she became Oracle.

  12. #57
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I mean, she ran her own Superhero team of super-ladies and became the informational and computer backbone of the Superhero community...so she was still pretty active beyond helping the current Batgirl or helping Batman.

    Did Babs not have her own character and narrative under Chuck Dixon and Gail Simone?
    How sustainable was any of that? It was pretty much dropped after those writers left, and there's a movie out now where Harley Quinn runs the BoP.

    Besides that though, her character was largely a support staff for Batman and whoever was Batgirl. I love Cass Cain, but not at the expense of Babs- and those 2 are just so different that there's no reason why they can't coexist. "Awesome hacker" is such a generic character, it can be anyone.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    And that is somehow degrading? She had her own story in the book even if she wasn't the main character, but for a supporting character that's still a lot. But Babs wasn't a main character even in Cass' run because she didn't need to be. It didn't make her less important.

    I don't see where people say they didn't want more from Oracle, just disagreement on whether she was handled well.

    If anything I wish more people wanted more from Barbara Gordon as Batgirl then what we're currently getting. Something that lived up to the potential and importance she had as Oracle.
    Oracle should have been more then just a Batgirl supporting character. Again Steph nor Cass weren’t so important that it made their supporting characters important.
    And this is confusing. You want Barbara Gordon as Batgirl to live up to the potential and importance she had as Oracle. Which if I’m following is what, her own story as a supporting character in Batgirl and not needing to be a main character? Its cool that you don’t think Oracle needs to be a main character, but i think Oracle deserved to be a main character. Oracle should have been a progressing star and it pains me that enough others didn’t want that too. I wanted more for Oracle then her own story as a supporting character in Batgirl, or eventually just the same old BoP. Especially given what was going on with all the other characters around her.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 02-11-2020 at 02:43 PM.

  14. #59
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artemisfanboy View Post
    You can't know unless you try. There hasn't been any attempt at replacing her as Oracle. Barbara is exclusively tied to Oracle because she's been the only Oracle(once again ignoring that evil AI calling itself Oracle which is far cry from the concept and role).
    DC made an attempt with Gus Yale. It didn't stick.

    And putting in another character as Oracle would be really hard, not only due to the protectiveness from us fans, but because Babs's story is so freaking strong and powerful.

    I think DC put themselves in this bind partly because some of their leadership had their heads stuck in that Babs must be Batgirl, but also because they wanted to keep TKJ around but at the same time having its consequences removed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    How sustainable was any of that? It was pretty much dropped after those writers left, and there's a movie out now where Harley Quinn runs the BoP.

    Besides that though, her character was largely a support staff for Batman and whoever was Batgirl. I love Cass Cain, but not at the expense of Babs- and those 2 are just so different that there's no reason why they can't coexist. "Awesome hacker" is such a generic character, it can be anyone.
    Have you seen the movie? No, it's not Harley Quinn "runs the BoP". More Harley Quinn teams up with the women who later will become part of the Birds of Prey.

    Also, doing Oracle as "awesome hacker" was lazy writing. Computers were the tools that Oracle used. But what she did was managing information and running superhero teams. And for that her prior experience as Batgirl was central.
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  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    DC made an attempt with Gus Yale. It didn't stick.

    And putting in another character as Oracle would be really hard, not only due to the protectiveness from us fans, but because Babs's story is so freaking strong and powerful.

    I think DC put themselves in this bind partly because some of their leadership had their heads stuck in that Babs must be Batgirl, but also because they wanted to keep TKJ around but at the same time having its consequences removed.



    Have you seen the movie? No, it's not Harley Quinn "runs the BoP". More Harley Quinn teams up with the women who later will become part of the Birds of Prey.

    Also, doing Oracle as "awesome hacker" was lazy writing. Computers were the tools that Oracle used. But what she did was managing information and running superhero teams. And for that her prior experience as Batgirl was central.
    I'll concede you have a good point. I've considered this angle myself.

    The strength of Oracle was the narrative of " A disabled former superheroine overcoming her disability and becoming computer expert,hacker, information central, and coordinator and leader for a team of superheroines" and the good work that was done on it by Ostrander, Dixon, and Simone.

    Even in this context, Frankie would not be a perfect replacement. But she's currently the frontrunner and the best we have to work with. And she's proven to have some kind of longevity as she's remained a supporting character since the burnside run without being casually discarded. I don't want to disable another existing character in the current continuity to make them into Oracle out of a sense of respect. Introducing a new character from scratch with the intention of eventually transforming them into Oracle would also take a lot of time and hard work, that you have to ask whether DC current creatives would be up to the challenge.

    I think a key mistake is putting a false amount of reverence on Killing joke. Its not a good ending to Barbara's career as of Batgirl at all. In my personal fanfic headcanon I've always liked to replace it with a story where she get's shot in the line of duty or taking a bullet for somebody. Something to try and give her Batgirl career a more heroic end replacing the shot as victim narrative with a cop shot in line of duty one. And I don't think most Babs as Oracle fans would have necessarily opposed to the replacement of the story. I've never really viewed Killing Joke as sacred. But it's not relevant to the current situation.

    Likewise if their hadn't been so much initial collateral damage to Steph, Cass, the Birds of Prey and we'd gotten a actual recovery story for Barbara, theres a good chance things would have been better received. But again most of that has been fixed since. I think the Bird's current situation could be rectified by simply getting Babs back the team as their leader, somewhat.

    So maybe end result is there is no way to adequately replace Barbara as Oracle.

    Both Barbara as Batgirl and Oracle are perfectly good and valid characters in their own right. Both have their pros. Batgirl, the spunky young comissioners daughter is good. Oracle the disabled former superheroine who found a way to overcome her disability is also good. Both are legitimate character concepts. Her being Batgirl is good for people who want her as an active adventurer and solo character, as well as merchandising. Her as Oracle gives the dcu a high profile example of disabled representation and helps enrich the Birds of Prey and the Batfamily as a supporting character. But you can't have Barbara as both at the same time in the same universe. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

    Sometimes I wonder if it might be a good idea ultimately if DC abandoned the idea of a single shared universe altogether and made the book self contained continuity model of Zoom/Ink/Black Label as the standard. Then we could have a Barbara Gordon Batgirl series and and Birds of Prey series with her as Oracle, and any other Bat books could choose whichever version of the character they want to use, if any, and no one would be considered the lesser for being an alternate continuity because there would be no such thing as a shared universe continuity. But of course is means letting go of the shared universe as a concept. I don't know.

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