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  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    True, but Dinah is traditionally a white character. So its a valid question, philosophically if nothing else, if you change the race of a white character and little else about the character, does that still count towards diversity?
    Well Dinah being a singer at Black Mask's club and being cynical due to her mother's death and being bounced from one foster home to the next is certainly new. With very few exceptions, most white superheroes could have been minorities with little or nothing to change and the more diversity there is, the more it is normalized.

    Renee Montoya isn't a member of the BoP in canon, and without her Question persona, is strictly a supporting character. She'd be great in a noir series, or detective story, but her story as 'disrespected Lesbian cop' simply is too weak to hold much water in a super hero movie. Cops have been bucking the system in movies for so long that it was a cliche in the 80s, and stopped being interesting long before then.
    Superheroes are built on cliches. We had stories about vigilantes and people with extraordinary powers before superheroes. And considering how much overlap there is between superhero and detective stories, Montoya is not out of place. Hell, she was a supporting character in Batman for years before she became the Question.

  2. #107
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    True, but Dinah is traditionally a white character. So its a valid question, philosophically if nothing else, if you change the race of a white character and little else about the character, does that still count towards diversity?
    Might, or might not. But it's not really an interesting question. To me it is much more important if the actor does a good job portraying the character. Both Rosie Perez and Jurnee Smollett-Bell did excellent work.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    Renee Montoya isn't a member of the BoP in canon, and without her Question persona, is strictly a supporting character. She'd be great in a noir series, or detective story, but her story as 'disrespected Lesbian cop' simply is too weak to hold much water in a super hero movie. Cops have been bucking the system in movies for so long that it was a cliche in the 80s, and stopped being interesting long before then.
    So what? Superhero teams evolve all the time, and I see no reason why movies shouldn't be allowed to mix and match their teams and their relations, just as much as the comic books are allowed to.

    Above all else, Birds of Prey was a movie about Gotham, and Renee Montoya most certainly belongs there.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    So I take the celebration of the diversity of this movie with a grain of salt. Because while it has it in fact, I don't feel it has it in spirit.

    Given that, ya know, the whitest girl ever is the main character.
    Your standards for diversity is clearly such that it is always forced, and never good enough. At least that's my impression.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  3. #108
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    As a comic book reader, I'll always prefer movies honoring the source material. I want to see characters in films who look like the characters on the pages. I know that's not true of the general movie-going audience -- only because they aren't familiar with the source material. That said, I think the traditional version of Black Canary actually would work better in a 40s/50 noir setting than in modern times. I think her solo stories in the Golden Age are still the high point of her existence as a comic book character -- although she has certainly had very good moments in the pre 52 Birds of Prey books.

    I don't know when CBR became so left-wing, but one of its recent articles stated that bashers are saying the movie failed because it stars female and queer characters. I think the queer aspect was very subtle -- so if anyone is really stating that this aspect hurt the film, I'd be surprised. And after the success of Wonder Woman -- and even Captain Marvel (to a lesser degree), I don't see how anyone could say a female driven film can't be successful. I don't follow social media, so I have no idea if that is actually happening -- or if it's just a vocal minority, or if CBR is just reporting it so they have something to write about.
    Last edited by kcekada; 02-19-2020 at 06:31 AM.

  4. #109
    Incredible Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcekada View Post
    As a comic book reader, I'll always prefer movies honoring the source material. I want to see characters in films who look like the characters on the pages. I know that's not true of the general movie-going audience -- only because they aren't familiar with the source material. That said, I think the traditional version of Black Canary actually would work better in a 40s/50 noir setting than in modern times. I think her solo stories in the Golden Age are still the high point of her existence as a comic book character -- although she has certainly had very good moments in the pre 52 Birds of Prey books.

    I don't know when CBR became so left-wing, but one of its recent articles stated that bashers are saying the movie failed because it stars female and queer characters. I think the queer aspect was very subtle -- so if anyone is really stating that this aspect hurt the film, I'd be surprised. And after the success of Wonder Woman -- and even Captain Marvel (to a lesser degree), I don't see how anyone could say a female driven film can't be successful. I don't follow social media, so I have no idea if that is actually happening -- or if it's just a vocal minority, or if CBR is just reporting it so they have something to write about.

    Black Canary is not a nobody to the general audience, there have been portrayal of her in live action TV and cartoon many times, she is on the top 5 most famous female heroines of DC. WW, SG, BG, then I guess it's her and PG. Her image was well received overall.

  5. #110
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    True, but Dinah is traditionally a white character. So its a valid question, philosophically if nothing else, if you change the race of a white character and little else about the character, does that still count towards diversity?
    It counts towards diversity in that a POC actress was given an opportunity to be part of an ensemble cast in a superhero movie. We're not just dealing with the realm of fiction here, but a real flesh and blood person who got to play a well developed and heroic character. She wasn't a token, but had an arc and was fleshed out.

    Race bending works for me on a case by case basis. Usually I like the casting to resemble the character as close as possible. But it's also not the end of the world if they bend the race if the end result was good. In this case, it very much was. It's also true that the vast majority of the iconic superheroes in Marvel and DC are white, so while it's preferable to use the underutilized POC characters they have, the fact is that they are not always required for a story being told. Meanwhile, a classic character is used but there is a real flesh and blood actor/actress who is otherwise very skilled and has good chemistry with the rest of the cast and otherwise embodies the traits of the character well. Who cares if they are not white? Unless there is movie synergy with the comics, it won't impact the character themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    Renee Montoya isn't a member of the BoP in canon, and without her Question persona, is strictly a supporting character. She'd be great in a noir series, or detective story, but her story as 'disrespected Lesbian cop' simply is too weak to hold much water in a super hero movie. Cops have been bucking the system in movies for so long that it was a cliche in the 80s, and stopped being interesting long before then.
    It's a story set in Gotham, which has utilized cop characters as leads/co-leads in stories for a long ass time. Gordon, Bullock and Montoya being the big ones. Her not being associated with the BOP in comics is irrelevant. The BOP is traditionally located in Gotham, so it's not a stretch for Montoya or even Harley to be there. It's not like they pulled in Maggie Sawyer or any Keystone cop characters for this.

  6. #111
    Incredible Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    It counts towards diversity in that a POC actress was given an opportunity to be part of an ensemble cast in a superhero movie. We're not just dealing with the realm of fiction here, but a real flesh and blood person who got to play a well developed and heroic character. She wasn't a token, but had an arc and was fleshed out.

    Race bending works for me on a case by case basis. Usually I like the casting to resemble the character as close as possible. But it's also not the end of the world if they bend the race if the end result was good. In this case, it very much was. It's also true that the vast majority of the iconic superheroes in Marvel and DC are white, so while it's preferable to use the underutilized POC characters they have, the fact is that they are not always required for a story being told. Meanwhile, a classic character is used but there is a real flesh and blood actor/actress who is otherwise very skilled and has good chemistry with the rest of the cast and otherwise embodies the traits of the character well. Who cares if they are not white? Unless there is movie synergy with the comics, it won't impact the character themselves.
    Actually there are enough black heroines to use if you want to. Regardless of how good a white actress is, she should not be picked to play Storm or Vixen.

    In Asian literature like Chinese legends, 99% of the characters are Asian, shall we insert white and black for diversity? No. Even if you want one, you should create original characters instead of race swapping existing ones.

    To truly respect other ethic groups, you need to adapt their good literature works to big screen, or create good original characters that root in such culture in your own franchise, not to just inset token members on screen.
    Last edited by Slowpokeking; 02-19-2020 at 09:54 AM.

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
    Actually there are enough black heroines to use if you want to. Regardless of how good a white actress is, she should not be picked to play Storm or Vixen.

    In Asian literature like Chinese legends, 99% of the characters are Asian, shall we insert white and black for diversity? No. Even if you want one, you should create original characters instead of race swapping existing ones.

    To truly respect other ethic groups, you need to adapt their good literature works to big screen, or create good original characters that root in such culture in your own franchise, not to just inset token members on screen.
    But Vixen isn't really relevant to a BOP project. Yeah, she ha some history with the team, but not nearly to the same extent as Black Canary. So she's much less likely to be considered for this, so there is one less character that a black actress could play. And the BOP was only considered in general because Robbie pushed for it.

    And please, you KNOW people would go apeshit if Vixen was used instead of Canary.

    And Canary had an arc and a distinct personality. She was not a token.

  8. #113
    Incredible Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    But Vixen isn't really relevant to a BOP project. Yeah, she ha some history with the team, but not nearly to the same extent as Black Canary. So she's much less likely to be considered for this, so there is one less character that a black actress could play. And the BOP was only considered in general because Robbie pushed for it.

    And please, you KNOW people would go apeshit if Vixen was used instead of Canary.

    And Canary had an arc and a distinct personality. She was not a token.
    Says a Harley Quinn focused "BoP" movie. Why would ppl be mad if we have Vixen and Black Canary?

    Canary is white, she should stay white, if you want a black character use one, insert a black actor simply for diversity reason is the definition of tokenism.
    Last edited by Slowpokeking; 02-19-2020 at 11:02 AM.

  9. #114
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    But Vixen isn't really relevant to a BOP project. Yeah, she ha some history with the team, but not nearly to the same extent as Black Canary. So she's much less likely to be considered for this, so there is one less character that a black actress could play. And the BOP was only considered in general because Robbie pushed for it.

    And please, you KNOW people would go apeshit if Vixen was used instead of Canary.

    And Canary had an arc and a distinct personality. She was not a token.
    I mean, they threw Renee Montoya in there and she has even less history with the team, so I don't think it would've been an issue.

  10. #115
    Incredible Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I mean, they threw Renee Montoya in there and she has even less history with the team, so I don't think it would've been an issue.
    You don't even need to bring up Montoya when Harley Quinn is the main character.

  11. #116
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
    Says a Harley Quinn focused "BoP" movie. Why would ppl be mad if we have Vixen and Black Canary?

    Canary is white, she should stay white, if you want a black character use one, insert a black actor simply for diversity reason is the definition of tokenism.
    So you want a BOP movie with Harley, Vixen, Huntress and Montoya? No Babs or Black Canary?

    People would be less inclined to go for this than they already were. And lack of Harley isn't an option, that was the reason this was made.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I mean, they threw Renee Montoya in there and she has even less history with the team, so I don't think it would've been an issue.
    There are already issues with the absence of Babs. Vixen in place of Canary in addition to that would definitely have had issues.

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    It counts towards diversity in that a POC actress was given an opportunity to be part of an ensemble cast in a superhero movie. We're not just dealing with the realm of fiction here, but a real flesh and blood person who got to play a well developed and heroic character. She wasn't a token, but had an arc and was fleshed out.

    Race bending works for me on a case by case basis. Usually I like the casting to resemble the character as close as possible. But it's also not the end of the world if they bend the race if the end result was good. In this case, it very much was. It's also true that the vast majority of the iconic superheroes in Marvel and DC are white, so while it's preferable to use the underutilized POC characters they have, the fact is that they are not always required for a story being told. Meanwhile, a classic character is used but there is a real flesh and blood actor/actress who is otherwise very skilled and has good chemistry with the rest of the cast and otherwise embodies the traits of the character well. Who cares if they are not white? Unless there is movie synergy with the comics, it won't impact the character themselves.
    Fair enough

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    It's a story set in Gotham, which has utilized cop characters as leads/co-leads in stories for a long ass time. Gordon, Bullock and Montoya being the big ones. Her not being associated with the BOP in comics is irrelevant. The BOP is traditionally located in Gotham, so it's not a stretch for Montoya or even Harley to be there. It's not like they pulled in Maggie Sawyer or any Keystone cop characters for this.
    BoP is traditionally set all over the world, actually. And while Gordon et all have appeared, they weren't cast members like Montoya is. Jim appeared in Justice League, didn't make him a member

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Superheroes are built on cliches. We had stories about vigilantes and people with extraordinary powers before superheroes. And considering how much overlap there is between superhero and detective stories, Montoya is not out of place. Hell, she was a supporting character in Batman for years before she became the Question.
    As the Question, she's a hero. And as Renee, as you point out, she's just a supporting character.

    Every genre has its cliches, but 'burned out cop' doesn't bring anything to a superhero movie.

  14. #119
    Incredible Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    So you want a BOP movie with Harley, Vixen, Huntress and Montoya? No Babs or Black Canary?

    People would be less inclined to go for this than they already were. And lack of Harley isn't an option, that was the reason this was made.
    I want a BoP movie to actually focus on BoP instead of making a Harley Quinn movie with them as supporting characters. Barbara, Canary and Huntress plus a few more without unnecessary changes.

    Yeah you even admitted yourself, it was title BoP but in truth they were brought up to support Harley, all the changes were to not let them outshine the character, and we don't like it.

  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Your standards for diversity is clearly such that it is always forced, and never good enough. At least that's my impression.
    My standard is that they contribute to the plot and cast in equal measure, and be allowed to demonstrate their full character.

    Cass didn't get that. You could have named her character literally anything else.

    A question for everyone in this thread.

    If there is a sequel, does anyone expect the BoP to be back?

    And if this movie is deemed a failure by the higher ups, which character(s) will have that hung around their necks? Harley? Or the BoP?

    I feel we all know the answer, and that's why I don't care for this movie.

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