Birds Of Prey (2020 Film) — Harley Quinn, BOP, and DCEU Discussion (Spoilers)

[Fergus]

I just said this over on the Damian Thread re Superson cancellation and it's relevant here. Dc seems to like screwing themselves.

m,y Daughter loves Harley and making it 15 rating effectively shut off a large amount of Harley fans. New fans none the less. I had to take her and her pals because I wasn't prepared to sit through this movie more than twice which limited the number of times she and her pals went to see it.

I wonder how many other parents were like me or flat out refused.

BOP is a solid fun movie that many people didn't get to see which is sad.

[batnbreakfast]

I just said this over on the Damian Thread re Superson cancellation and it's relevant here. Dc seems to like screwing themselves.

m,y Daughter loves Harley and making it 15 rating effectively shut off a large amount of Harley fans. New fans none the less. I had to take her and her pals because I wasn't prepared to sit through this movie more than twice which limited the number of times she and her pals went to see it.

I wonder how many other parents were like me or flat out refused.

BOP is a solid fun movie that many people didn't get to see which is sad.

I think there are more interesting characters in the movie besides her and maybe teenage girls can watch one of the other 500 different movies catering to their tastes

[gregpersons]

I just said this over on the Damian Thread re Superson cancellation and it's relevant here. Dc seems to like screwing themselves.

m,y Daughter loves Harley and making it 15 rating effectively shut off a large amount of Harley fans. New fans none the less. I had to take her and her pals because I wasn't prepared to sit through this movie more than twice which limited the number of times she and her pals went to see it.

I wonder how many other parents were like me or flat out refused.

BOP is a solid fun movie that many people didn't get to see which is sad.

It's really frustrating.

EVERY Batman film is PG-13 or below. Both the Harley Quinn animated show and the BOP film both being R / TV-MA is... bizarre. I'm fine with "Joker" for R; that makes sense. But otherwise, virtually every DCU/every Batman thing has been PG-13 so why does Harley need to be XXXtreme all the time?

There's NO option for a young fan who likes Harley to have anything to watch. I'm not sure if there's even a Harley curated playlist of BTAS episodes. Madness.

[Nick Miller]

15 minutes in . 3 people in the theater

Its a giant pile of ****.

[Fergus]

I think there are more interesting characters in the movie besides her and maybe teenage girls can watch one of the other 500 different movies catering to their tastes

Well I know you are 100% wrong. My daughter and her pals went to see the movie for Harley and they came out only talking about Harley.
Young girls should watch the characters they find appealing and interesting.

Everyone else needs to understand that taste is subjective and learn to live with that.

My daughter also watches DCSHG, BTas, JLU and JL but they really really got super excited when they learn't that there was a harley movie coming out

[Fergus]

It's really frustrating.

EVERY Batman film is PG-13 or below. Both the Harley Quinn animated show and the BOP film both being R / TV-MA is... bizarre. I'm fine with "Joker" for R; that makes sense. But otherwise, virtually every DCU/every Batman thing has been PG-13 so why does Harley need to be XXXtreme all the time?

There's NO option for a young fan who likes Harley to have anything to watch. I'm not sure if there's even a Harley curated playlist of BTAS episodes. Madness.

This is it. I don't understand why the movie was such a high rating becauise it's a lot Tamer than joker, deadpool and the harley Animated series.

I suspect it was rated that way to lure in the extreme crowd but the movie itself wasn't that risque.

I don't know who makes up Harley's biggest market but I feel that DC should have made this movie as widely accessible as possible.

[lilyrose]

I think a Joker/Harley movie would have done better at the box office. I don't think Harley Quinn is as universally known as people think. Only among comics people. For general audiences if she's known at all she's still associated with Joker as a sidekick character to him.

Also, I don't think she's a very good character for young girls to idolize. First of all she's a villain. Second of all, everything about her entire origin is interesting because of how dark, twisted and somewhat tragic it is. She's not a character that was made for kids. She's a victim of abuse, but ALSO a complicit enabler of the highest order. You can say she wouldn't have been evil if not for Joker, but she never gave a **** about anything he did that was evil. She encouraged and helped him mass murder who knows how many people and did it gleefully.

That is not a hero OR an antihero. She's a villain. You can be a victim AND a villain and she's one of those that's both. Maybe she only acts due to the influence of those around her, but she's completely amoral in that she doesn't care about anything. So to me, you just can't bring this character back from the severity of her crimes. She's a murderer.

[Fergus]

I think a Joker/Harley movie would have done better at the box office. I don't think Harley Quinn is as universally known as people think. Only among comics people. For general audiences if she's known at all she's still associated with Joker as a sidekick character to him.

Also, I don't think she's a very good character for young girls to idolize. First of all she's a villain. Second of all, everything about her entire origin is interesting because of how dark, twisted and somewhat tragic it is. She's not a character that was made for kids. She's a victim of abuse, but ALSO a complicit enabler of the highest order. You can say she wouldn't have been evil if not for Joker, but she never gave a **** about anything he did that was evil. She encouraged and helped him mass murder who knows how many people and did it gleefully.

That is not a hero OR an antihero. She's a villain. You can be a victim AND a villain and she's one of those that's both. Maybe she only acts due to the influence of those around her, but she's completely amoral in that she doesn't care about anything. So to me, you just can't bring this character back from the severity of her crimes. She's a murderer.

kids shouldn't idolise fictional characters. kids find role models in their parents and real life people. At least the ones I know and the one's I've raised. If a kid is looking to fictional characters rather than real people to emulate then something is wrong imo

My kids like following both heroic -Superman, Wonder Woman. TT, Supersons character along with less heroic ones -Slade, Catwoman, harley, Hive.etc

They like the bad guys as much as the heroes. It doesn't matter. Not to me or to them. So long as the material is age appropriate then I'm fine with then reading any character they find interesting.
They are not stupid they are able to recognise which actions are wrong.
mental they are balanced enough to easily recognise the difference between fiction and non fiction. They know what's acceptable and what isn't.

My kids used to love MoJo JoJo. Millions of kids did and still do. So what?
kids know right from wrong and they know that films and comics aren't real.

They know that just because comics characters like Catwoman steal doesn't mean it's not evil. They know it's not acceptable

They know that MoJo JoJo trying to take over the world is make believe and not something people in real life do unless they are bad twisted people like Hitler or Khan

When kids read Harley saving the world from antilife Zombies they understand that zombies aren't actually real.

They know how to separate reality from make believe.

harley hasn't been Joker's sidekick for a while she's now more of an independent IP
I don't know how big Harley is but DC has come out and called her their 4th pillar after the trinity. She is certainly without a doubt the 2nd biggest female star DC has.

[kjn]

I think a Joker/Harley movie would have done better at the box office. I don't think Harley Quinn is as universally known as people think. Only among comics people. For general audiences if she's known at all she's still associated with Joker as a sidekick character to him.

On the other hand, WB managed to market Suicide Squad to a $133M opening, and Marvel built their film empire on top of their B-list properties (and their remaining top property—Hulk—had the least success). DC's first $1B movie was freaking Aquaman (outrageous!). So I think it's been pretty well established that being well-known is no requirement for commercial success in the movie market, or vice versa.

What matters is getting a good (or at least enjoyable) film and good marketing.

Also, I don't think she's a very good character for young girls to idolize. First of all she's a villain. Second of all, everything about her entire origin is interesting because of how dark, twisted and somewhat tragic it is. She's not a character that was made for kids. She's a victim of abuse, but ALSO a complicit enabler of the highest order. You can say she wouldn't have been evil if not for Joker, but she never gave a **** about anything he did that was evil. She encouraged and helped him mass murder who knows how many people and did it gleefully.

That is not a hero OR an antihero. She's a villain. You can be a victim AND a villain and she's one of those that's both. Maybe she only acts due to the influence of those around her, but she's completely amoral in that she doesn't care about anything. So to me, you just can't bring this character back from the severity of her crimes. She's a murderer.

I think you're reading Harley Quinn wrong as a character. She's developed into a trickster figure. She is a victim or a villain or a survivor or a hero, depending on the situation and how she reacts.

Harley isn't supposed to be a moral model, but the opposite: she is a character who makes all the wrong choices, in order to show why they are the wrong choices. But she is also a character who cares about people.

That's more than Batman does.

[The Cool Thatguy]

On the other hand, WB managed to market Suicide Squad to a $133M opening, and Marvel built their film empire on top of their B-list properties (and their remaining top property—Hulk—had the least success). DC's first $1B movie was freaking Aquaman (outrageous!). So I think it's been pretty well established that being well-known is no requirement for commercial success in the movie market, or vice versa.

What matters is getting a good (or at least enjoyable) film and good marketing..

I could not agree more.

Which makes the defense of 'Harley is more popular than the BoP' as to why she must be the main character of the movie, so annoying.

[lilyrose]

I think you're reading Harley Quinn wrong as a character. She's developed into a trickster figure. She is a victim or a villain or a survivor or a hero, depending on the situation and how she reacts.

Harley isn't supposed to be a moral model, but the opposite: she is a character who makes all the wrong choices, in order to show why they are the wrong choices. But she is also a character who cares about people.

If this was true she would not have assisted in the mass murder of who knows how many innocent people over the years. She had no regret, no hesitation, no feeling at ALL for everything she and Joker did.

That's my problem with her, post- Joker. You just can't wave that away, imo- it's not stealing jewelry, like Catwoman, it's homicide and torture for fun. I think the desperation to make her some kind of antihero requires completely ignoring just how bad her crimes were. And that she has virtually no regrets about it- aside from her obsession with Joker, she's as much of a sociopath as he is.

[kjn]

If this was true she would not have assisted in the mass murder of who knows how many innocent people over the years. She had no regret, no hesitation, no feeling at ALL for everything she and Joker did.

That's my problem with her, post- Joker. You just can't wave that away, imo- it's not stealing jewelry, like Catwoman, it's homicide and torture for fun. I think the desperation to make her some kind of antihero requires completely ignoring just how bad her crimes were. And that she has virtually no regrets about it- aside from her obsession with Joker, she's as much of a sociopath as he is.

Should Harley Quinn be in prison in the real world, or in a psychiatric institution? Yes.

But you know who else should be there? Batman.

The superhero stories are mythological in nature. The characters are supposed to be larger than life and doing outrageous things. Harley Quinn has developed into a fantasy of redemption and of striking back against your abusers.

I find the insistence that she be defined to be a victim and fellow criminal with Joker to be a declaration that redemption isn't possible, and that once sullied, a woman is forever sullied. It's a form of misogyny that denies women their experience and their triumphs.

[lilyrose]

Should Harley Quinn be in prison in the real world, or in a psychiatric institution? Yes.

But you know who else should be there? Batman.

The superhero stories are mythological in nature. The characters are supposed to be larger than life and doing outrageous things. Harley Quinn has developed into a fantasy of redemption and of striking back against your abusers.

I find the insistence that she be defined to be a victim and fellow criminal with Joker to be a declaration that redemption isn't possible, and that once sullied, a woman is forever sullied. It's a form of misogyny that denies women their experience and their triumphs.

I actually don't believe redemption is possible for mass murderers. Yes, she's a victim of abuse, but she was also an enabler, accomplice and perpetrator of crimes that are far too horrific to be overlooked or redeemed. The fantasy of striking back against your abusers is one thing and I can see turning her into that. But redemption for her own guilt? She doesn't feel guilt for anything she did in the first place.

That's why I'd prefer her seeking out her independence by trying to be her own villain, like on the recent cartoon show. On that they at least don't try to pretend she's not a bad guy.

[The True Detective]

Should Harley Quinn be in prison in the real world, or in a psychiatric institution? Yes.

But you know who else should be there? Batman.

The superhero stories are mythological in nature. The characters are supposed to be larger than life and doing outrageous things. Harley Quinn has developed into a fantasy of redemption and of striking back against your abusers.

I find the insistence that she be defined to be a victim and fellow criminal with Joker to be a declaration that redemption isn't possible, and that once sullied, a woman is forever sullied. It's a form of misogyny that denies women their experience and their triumphs.

You seem weirdly obsessed with Batman, why constantly bring him up this thread has nothing to do with him.

Aiding and abetting an evil mass murderer like Joker isn't just some relatively petty crime like stealing that can just be swept under the rug. Using the DCEU as an example Margot Robbie's Harley helped Joker kill Robin, who was a minor. I don't care if she regrets it (she likely doesn't) that's unforgivable. Irl a parent of one of Joker and Harley's victims isn't going to say "well, she seems sorry and everyone deserves forgiveness so I'm ok with them murdering my child!"

The things you'll bash Batman for while literally forgiving Harley for murder are insane.

[dietrich]

For what it's worth harley uses non lethal rounds in BOP.
Batman kills in the DCEU at least he did in BVS and he was the mitigating circumstance in Robin's death.

Both are bad and their crimes are often overlooked.
In the comics neither are what i would describe as heroes.

Both belong in max security institutions but that doesn't stop them being interesting and popular characters nor should it.

i don't think there's a problem with kids taking an interest in Harley Quinn or characters who aren't 'Purely Good' so long they don't try to emulate them.