Birds Of Prey (2020 Film) — Harley Quinn, BOP, and DCEU Discussion (Spoilers)

[The True Detective]

For what it's worth harley uses non lethal rounds in BOP.
Batman kills in the DCEU at least he did in BVS and he was the mitigating circumstance in Robin's death.

Both are bad and their crimes are often overlooked.
In the comics neither are what i would describe as heroes.

Both belong in max security institution

There's a huge difference between Batfleck killing henchmen shooting at him and Harley helping Joker murder a kid.

[dietrich]

There's a huge difference between Batfleck killing henchmen shooting at him and Harley helping Joker murder a kid.

Yes there is. It takes a special type of monster to kill or endanger a child.

[kjn]

You seem weirdly obsessed with Batman, why constantly bring him up this thread has nothing to do with him.

Aiding and abetting an evil mass murderer like Joker isn't just some relatively petty crime like stealing that can just be swept under the rug. Using the DCEU as an example Margot Robbie's Harley helped Joker kill Robin, who was a minor. I don't care if she regrets it (she likely doesn't) that's unforgivable. Irl a parent of one of Joker and Harley's victims isn't going to say "well, she seems sorry and everyone deserves forgiveness so I'm ok with them murdering my child!"

The things you'll bash Batman for while literally forgiving Harley for murder are insane.

I've done two comparisons with Batman that I considered relevant. I'm not sure that's obsessed.

People are complicated. A person can be the hero in one story or event, and a villain in another.

Birds of Prey acknowledges that. Harley Quinn isn't starting out acting heroically. But she has lines she isn't willing to cross, and in this particular story and this particular situation that means she ends up acting heroically.

Does that mean her prior crimes are forgiven? No. But her prior crimes should also not be a barrier to recognising that she acts heroically in those instances where she does. And this is a movie about emancipation, not about redemption.

[The True Detective]

I've done two comparisons with Batman that I considered relevant. I'm not sure that's obsessed.

People are complicated. A person can be the hero in one story or event, and a villain in another.

Birds of Prey acknowledges that. Harley Quinn isn't starting out acting heroically. But she has lines she isn't willing to cross, and in this particular story and this particular situation that means she ends up acting heroically.

Does that mean her prior crimes are forgiven? No. But her prior crimes should also not be a barrier to recognising that she acts heroically in those instances where she does. And this is a movie about emancipation, not about redemption.

I'm just saying whenever you bring up Batman is always in a very hostile and negative way towards him. You bring him up frequently despite saying you think he's one of the least interesting DC characters.

Of course redemption (I know you said the movie isn't about that), within reason, is possible but once certain lines are crossed there should be no coming back. If DC decided to make the Joker a hero out of the blue it would never work, he's done way too many reprehensible things to be seen in any sort of positive light. Harley isn't as bad as he is but assisting someone in killing a child is something that shouldn't be swept under the rug just because she feels like being a hero this particular week.

[kjn]

I'm just saying whenever you bring up Batman is always in a very hostile and negative way towards him. You bring him up frequently despite saying you think he's one of the least interesting DC characters.

As a character I don't find Batman that interesting. As a cultural icon in the post-Frank Miller era, he very much is.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Yes there is. It takes a special type of monster to kill or endanger a child.

I'm fairly sure that's not canon anymore. The DCEU has been doing soft reboots of major characters since Batman's appearance in Suicide Squad, so I can see them dumping that from Harley's history. Batman vs Superman is erased from canon.

[SiegePerilous02]

As a character I don't find Batman that interesting. As a cultural icon in the post-Frank Miller era, he very much is.

It's Frank Miller (or the gradual, pervasive influence his take had) that made Batman a less interesting and likable character in the first place.

As broadly characterized as they both are as icons, Batman is a better person than Harley considering some of the things she's deliberately done. In the original plans of the DCEU she helped kill Dick Grayson, in the DCAU she helped mentally torture Tim Drake to insanity. She likely played a key role in the latter considering her former profession. There was also her smiling excitedly as the Joker prepared to drill into Gordon's skull. However, as she is broadly characterized, I think how evil she is away from the Joker and Ivy's influence shouldn't be over the top like some of the stuff in the New 52 (didn't she do a mass killing of a bunch of kids there?), so I'm happy to ignore some of that stuff like I'm happy to ignore the Brother Eye crap or whatever for Batman. And I wouldn't say she's irredeemable if she made a genuine attempt, she's definitely more redeemable than her boyfriend and many other male villains. But i also don't think her being a woman should give her a free pass (same with Ivy) for some of the stuff they do. Most redemption stories for villains in general (male or female) are not always satisfying or believable, and seem driven by the characters popularity more so than any genuine belief that they need to make up for their crimes or give much thought to their victims.

[kjn]

It's Frank Miller (or the gradual, pervasive influence his take had) that made Batman a less interesting and likable character in the first place.

I didn't find pre-Miller Batman that interesting either.

Most redemption stories for villains in general (male or female) are not always satisfying or believable, and seem driven by the characters popularity more so than any genuine belief that they need to make up for their crimes or give much thought to their victims.

We're meandering off-topic here, but one of the issues here is that each reader is likely to have widely different views of various villains, and which of their past deeds are in their personal continuity.

Like the references to DCEU Harley helping Joker kill Grayson, or DCAU Harley torturing Drake, are they relevant—either directly or indirectly—for the comics Harley being written right now? I wouldn't be surprised if Lilyrose and I use vastly different stories that we use to describe Harley Quinn.

Then that has to mesh with the writer's view of the character, and the way the character is used in a particular story.

[SiegePerilous02]

I didn't find pre-Miller Batman that interesting either.

We'll never see eye to eye then

Much like DC's other major heroes, especially the Trinity, Batman is usually always interesting in his archetypal make up even when he isn't always interesting as a character. At least pre-Miller he was fun and likable. Now, he is reduced to traits that appeal to the lowest common denominators, regardless of how much they view those interesting qualities as heroic or bad. It usually involves an oversimplification of the character.

We're meandering off-topic here, but one of the issues here is that each reader is likely to have widely different views of various villains, and which of their past deeds are in their personal continuity.

Like the references to DCEU Harley helping Joker kill Grayson, or DCAU Harley torturing Drake, are they relevant—either directly or indirectly—for the comics Harley being written right now? I wouldn't be surprised if Lilyrose and I use vastly different stories that we use to describe Harley Quinn.

Then that has to mesh with the writer's view of the character, and the way the character is used in a particular story.

I don't know if they are relevant to the comics Harley. Surely she has some baggage that not everyone will be able to get over. And if we're talking about the DCEU Harley, her helping to kill Robin without expressing any apparent regret over it may color someone's ability to view her redemption as authentic.

Personal continuity does sort of render these types of questions irrelevant though. Some of Harley's (or whoever's) actions may be able to be ignored by some fans, less so others.

[Jackalope89]

I'm fairly sure that's not canon anymore. The DCEU has been doing soft reboots of major characters since Batman's appearance in Suicide Squad, so I can see them dumping that from Harley's history. Batman vs Superman is erased from canon.

Unless its actually addressed, be it in the films or out, as being non-canon anymore (and not just say, Margot Robbie's opinion), then its kind of hard to just dismiss it.

[Agent Z]

Cathy Yan Fought to Keep Birds of Prey's Most Upsetting Scene

https://io9.gizmodo.com/cathy-yan-fo...ing-1842692401

Warning for spoilers and discussion of sexual assasult.

[kjn]

Cathy Yan Fought to Keep Birds of Prey's Most Upsetting Scene

https://io9.gizmodo.com/cathy-yan-fo...ing-1842692401

Warning for spoilers and discussion of sexual assasult.

Guessed correctly on the scene.

And yes, I think the movie would have been much weaker without it. It was a central part of Black Canary's arc, and a really powerful and well-made scene in and of itself.

[AmiMizuno]

So a Harley and Ivy squeal might be happening. If they learn from what this movie needs it can work. But there are already issues with Harley and Ivy might be a couple.

[The Cool Thatguy]

So a Harley and Ivy squeal might be happening. If they learn from what this movie needs it can work. But there are already issues with Harley and Ivy might be a couple.

Oh, hey, Harley's returning! And the other BoP?

...yeah we all know the answer. I just want to make it obvious.

[Clark_Kent]

Oh, hey, Harley's returning! And the other BoP?

...yeah we all know the answer. I just want to make it obvious.

I don't think the others are off the table yet. It was rumored originally that after this film we would get Gotham City Sirens, and then a "trilogy" capper in "Birds of Prey vs Gotham City Sirens". Who knows if that were true to begin with, and who knows what will happen now, but I wouldn't take it off the table yet. BoP didn't make a lot of money, but it reviewed very well and is certified fresh on RT...that may be enough to keep plans moving forward. Shazam was in the same boat, and they are still planning a sequel for it.