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  1. #121
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    BoP is traditionally set all over the world, actually. And while Gordon et all have appeared, they weren't cast members like Montoya is. Jim appeared in Justice League, didn't make him a member
    Dixon's run and Simone's first run were very much in the international heist and spy style. But even so, the team was based in Gotham from the beginning, and their stories set there became more prominent during the evolution of the Oracle era. With the Batgirl era, they became even more rooted to Gotham.

    And heck, this is merely the story of the formation of the Birds of Prey team. It might go in a myriad directions after this, if WB wants to.

    Complaining about Montoya being part of movie-BoP is just silly.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  2. #122
    Mighty Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Again I don't hate Harley as well. I would totally go to see a Harley focused good movie like the Joker without messing up with BoP. Or Gotham Sirens if the other two were not chopped down.

  3. #123
    Mighty Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    My standard is that they contribute to the plot and cast in equal measure, and be allowed to demonstrate their full character.

    Cass didn't get that. You could have named her character literally anything else.

    A question for everyone in this thread.

    If there is a sequel, does anyone expect the BoP to be back?

    And if this movie is deemed a failure by the higher ups, which character(s) will have that hung around their necks? Harley? Or the BoP?

    I feel we all know the answer, and that's why I don't care for this movie.
    This, it's a Harley Quinn project from the beginning.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    As the Question, she's a hero. And as Renee, as you point out, she's just a supporting character.
    She's a lot more than that in this movie. Even if she weren't, why is that a problem?

    Every genre has its cliches, but 'burned out cop' doesn't bring anything to a superhero movie.
    Somebody better tell that to Matt Reeves since he's still using Gordon in his Batman movie.

    "Burned out cop" brings the perspective of someone in law enforcement who has issues with the hero's actions but is also aware of the legal system's flaws.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    My standard is that they contribute to the plot and cast in equal measure, and be allowed to demonstrate their full character.

    Cass didn't get that. You could have named her character literally anything else.
    Look, I feel your pain as a fellow Cass fan but she is not the only minority character in this film.

    A question for everyone in this thread.

    If there is a sequel, does anyone expect the BoP to be back?
    Why shouldn't they be?

    And if this movie is deemed a failure by the higher ups, which character(s) will have that hung around their necks? Harley? Or the BoP?

    I feel we all know the answer, and that's why I don't care for this movie.
    In a perfect world neither of them should be blamed for the movie's failures. Frankly, this feels like senseless reason to dislike this movie.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 02-19-2020 at 09:06 PM.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    She's a lot more than that in this movie. Even if she weren't, why is that a problem?
    Because her story isn't as compelling as other members of the cast. She wastes screen time that could have gone to Cass or Huntress.

    In a superhero movie, Renee is basic

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Somebody better tell that to Matt Reeves since he's still using Gordon in his Batman movie.

    "Burned out cop" brings the perspective of someone in law enforcement who has issues with the hero's actions but is also aware of the legal system's flaws.
    That perspective in a superhero movie is best reserved for supporting cast, which Gordon will be

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Look, I feel your pain as a fellow Cass fan but she is not the only minority character in this film.
    Yet the only one to get major focus was the one that was race swapped.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Why shouldn't they be?
    Because the movie may perform below expectations

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    In a perfect world neither of them should be blamed for the movie's failures. Frankly, this feels like senseless reason to dislike this movie.
    We don't live in a perfect world. The president of the United States alone is a hint of that

    If you can't do them justice, then you shouldn't do them at all.

  6. #126
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    I feel like the film did everyone except Cass justice. The complaints for everyone else are just quibbles.

    I want more comic accurate costumes for Canary and Huntress but that's...really easy to do.

    If race changes are always bad and Canary should only be white, someone needs to tell the billion dollars Aquaman made that Momoa can't play him anymore. Or that Sam Jackson shouldn't play Fury because Fury is white.

  7. #127
    Mighty Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    So actually the Canary's dress and hairstyle in this movie was partly based on Vixen in the comic.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    If you can't do them justice, then you shouldn't do them at all.
    Who determines that?


    And if this movie is deemed a failure by the higher ups, which character(s) will have that hung around their necks? Harley? Or the BoP?
    A movie that is $50 million from $200 million and only 12 weeks in theaters would hardly be viewed as a failure with Spring Break coming up.

    And China is off the grid for medical reasons-so that money is gone.

    If the only folks complaining are toxic comic book fans-why would they blame Harley or BOP?

    Since those fans can not point out what source material the film should have used since there are 30+ trades.



    Because the movie may perform below expectations
    What are those expectations? Has someone public stated them????

  9. #129
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    I really enjoyed this film! I was surprised by how efficient the characterization was. Every character felt fully realized in spite of not being front and center for a good chunk of the film.

    Cassandra Cain's depiction was the only disappointment for me--I feel like, as has already been said, they could have created an original character to fit that role and it wouldn't have made a difference. The character works in the context of the film but doesn't resemble her comic book counterpart in the slightest--they actually seemed to have taken the 'raised by an assassin' part of her origin and transferred it to Huntress.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Somebody better tell that to Matt Reeves since he's still using Gordon in his Batman movie.

    "Burned out cop" brings the perspective of someone in law enforcement who has issues with the hero's actions but is also aware of the legal system's flaws.
    Jim Gordon was this in Batman Begins, before Batman gave him hope.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    I
    Cassandra Cain's depiction was the only disappointment for me--I feel like, as has already been said, they could have created an original character to fit that role and it wouldn't have made a difference. The character works in the context of the film but doesn't resemble her comic book counterpart in the slightest--they actually seemed to have taken the 'raised by an assassin' part of her origin and transferred it to Huntress.
    That's been Bertinelli's origin from conception, Huntress is super faithful in their rendition.

  11. #131
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    That's been Bertinelli's origin from conception, Huntress is super faithful in their rendition.
    Was she trained by an assassin? For some reason I was thinking she mostly self-taught. I'm probably wrong about this, I'm mostly going off vague memories of 90s comics and her JLU appearances.

  12. #132

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    I didn't see the film but i thought this was a good take on it.
    Last edited by the illustrious mr. kenway; 02-25-2020 at 12:29 PM.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    Was she trained by an assassin? For some reason I was thinking she mostly self-taught. I'm probably wrong about this, I'm mostly going off vague memories of 90s comics and her JLU appearances.
    Yes, she was.

  14. #134
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    I thought this was a good article about the film and what it gets right: https://www.vulture.com/2020/02/marg...uly-woman.html

    I'm looking forward to eventually giving the film a rewatch on blu-ray.

    Birds of Prey is a film guided by the pleasure principle: the plentiful use of the word ****, a smattering of colors like glittery teal and cotton-candy pink, and often, a healthy appreciation of food. One of the best sequences involves Harley simply trying to eat a beloved egg sandwich from a local shop. As her hair gently rustles from some unseen fan, her gaze melts into one of unquenched desire, lips parting in anticipation. Before she can take her first bite of the sunny-side-up egg, perfectly buttered toast, and American cheese with just a dash of hot sauce, Detective Renee Montoya (Rosie Perez) decides to chase Harley through the crowded outdoor shops of Gotham. Harley is momentarily distracted by a rainbow-sequined fanny pack, her face melting into awe, until she sees how close Renee is to catching her. Just when she thinks she’s safe — reassuring her egg sandwich, “It’s okay, we’ll get through this” — Renee tackles her, sending her meal flying in the air, landing onto the asphalt in a sloppy heap. Robbie mines this moment for humor, leaning into the character’s natural sense of exaggeration. She crooks her jaw dramatically to the left and cries out, “No!” Her body slams against the asphalt, reaching toward the lost sandwich, looking directly at the camera as her eyes brim with tears. On its face, this moment is hilarious. But it also speaks to Harley’s dedication to the pleasures in life, above all else. The superhero genre is often wildly disconnected from the simple joys of being human. So to witness a female character like Harley eating with abandon and treasuring her desires rather than dampening them feels electrifying. Her unruliness is a potent antithesis to the glossy, never a hair out of place, shallow renditions of female characters in comic-book films.

    Much of the scintillating excess of Birds of Prey is thanks to the costuming by Erin Benach. Harley dons a clear jacket with sleeves made of caution tape and confetti, gold leather overalls with a hot-pink crop top underneath, a floor-length coat dripping in silver sequins. Robbie transforms in these costumes, matching their vibrancy and boldness with a sharp-edged physicality that shows little regard for the world around her, constantly wreaking havoc wherever she goes. And the costuming is more than just aesthetically dazzling — it wrests the character from the male gaze that defined her in 2016’s Suicide Squad. In that film, she wore skimpy, sequined hot pants with a thin shirt displaying her torso. The clothing in Birds of Prey doesn’t shy away from showing skin, but rather than objectify, it reflects Harley’s audaciousness. For this reason, it isn’t surprising that a small but vocal contingent of men on Twitter grumbled about the lack of sex appeal in the movie.

    Comic-book films and other would-be blockbusters are becoming more diverse by degrees, offering a wider array of female characters. But with this has come a frustratingly hollow, corporate-minded feminism that deems a moment like the “Just a Girl” needle drop in Captain Marvel as progress rather than the cynical ploy it actually is. Yan and Hodson bypass this by interweaving moments and gestures that call attention to the prosaic, misogynistic encounters women face in a way that provides a trenchant framework for Harley’s unruliness.

    In a pivotal scene midway through the film, Harley is severely drunk outside of Black Mask’s club with a man who coos in her ear and ignores her pleas to go home. Her body is supine in his grasp, barely able to stand up on her own. He drags her to a van, intending to assault her. But before he can, the singer and future superhero Black Canary (Jurnee Smollett-Bell) saves Harley, effortlessly kicking and subduing the men who planned to harm her. What’s crucial about this scene is that Black Canary and Harley aren’t allies yet. (Actually, far from it — Black Canary finds Harley absolutely annoying.) The moment speaks to the camaraderie among women who must protect each other against the larger forces that shape their lives. The film takes a sidelong glance at the idea that the very quality that makes Harley so electrifying to watch also makes her an annoyance and target in a patriarchal society that wants to destroy that spirit.

    The world doesn’t quite know what to do with women’s passions. It’s easy for the vigorous to be seen as the excessive, the passionate to be beaten down. Birds of Prey is in essence a fantasy that offers a different, brighter outlook for women who choose not to play by the rules.

  15. #135
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregpersons View Post
    I thought this was a good article about the film and what it gets right: https://www.vulture.com/2020/02/marg...uly-woman.html

    I'm looking forward to eventually giving the film a rewatch on blu-ray.
    Nice discussion, and thanks for linking it!

    I think it also puts a finger on why this movie had trouble with marketing: it's anti-male gaze, rather than simply removing it. Wonder Woman, and to somehat lesser degree Captain Marvel, was made for women but also placed them on somewhat of a pedestal. BoP smashes that very pedestal.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

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