Birds Of Prey (2020 Film) — Harley Quinn, BOP, and DCEU Discussion (Spoilers)

[AmiMizuno]

With the way things are going WB really needs to have someone be in charge of the DC movies who has a basic understanding because the fact more and more of their movies are underpermoining means something. They are picking people who don't understanding characters.

[The Cool Thatguy]

With the way things are going WB really needs to have someone be in charge of the DC movies who has a basic understanding because the fact more and more of their movies are underpermoining means something. They are picking people who don't understanding characters.

I think the biggest problem is that they let the stars run roughshod over the movies, like Robbie in BoP and Will Smith in Suicide Squad

[AmiMizuno]

Yea because Robbie was asked if she wanted to do Sirens or Birds of Prey. You can't always allow Actress to do that. We were told Batgirl was going to be there. So they know she is a BOP member.

[Agent Z]

Aside from picking which movie she wanted to be in, Robbie didn't "run roughshod" over the film. And neither did any of the other actors in any DC film.

[kjn]

I don't think the title is the reason it performed poorly... but it didn't help. I think the long quirky name is kinda funny and cute, but it should've just been marketed as HARLEY QUINN: BIRDS OF PREY to begin with, and show the longform title in the actual credits. Like how THE IRISHMAN is credited by the title of the book "I Heard You Paint Houses" but that wouldn't have made for as good of a title for the poster and key art.

I get the allure of the original title, and it certainly fits the character of Harley Quinn, but it was far too unwieldy. But it was one of many missteps made in marketing this movie.

But I wouldn't have called it "Harley Quinn: Birds of Prey". I'd have called it "Harley Quinn: #MeToo".

#1 — It should've been PG-13 just like Shazam or Wonder Woman or Aquaman or every Batman film. It's fine for Joker to be R, but I think it was a mistake with Suicide Squad and definitely again here with Harley Quinn's "breakout" movie. I think especially with the DCAU animated show being R-rated (and I like the show a lot), the movie should've been more accessible to new and younger fans.

I think this movie needed to be R-rated. Making it PG-13 might have been good for profit, but I think the movie would have lost its soul without it.

#2 — Poor IP management. People associate "Birds of Prey" primarily with Barbara Gordon as Oracle or Batgirl... so if you're going to use the BOP brand name to attract its fans, then you should expect that her absence would be a turn-off or at least confusing.

As far as the general public goes, "Birds of Prey" is a total unknown, and for fans the mismanagement of the Birds of Prey goes back a long time. The movie itself handled the concept of the team well enough, but making the team the core of the marketing would bring nothing but grief.

With the way things are going WB really needs to have someone be in charge of the DC movies who has a basic understanding because the fact more and more of their movies are underpermoining means something. They are picking people who don't understanding characters.

More and more of DC movies are underperforming?

Aquaman most certainly didn't. Joker most certainly didn't. Shazam might not have made as much of a profit as WB wanted, but it did turn in a modest profit and is well regarded.

And have you seen the movie? Gail fucking Simone picked out Black Canary from the movie cast when she visited the sets without being told who she was from the attitude alone. Rosie Perez embodied the grizzled cop nature of Renee Montoya. Huntress didn't get much, but what we got was good.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Aside from picking which movie she wanted to be in, Robbie didn't "run roughshod" over the film. And neither did any of the other actors in any DC film.

Oh, so its just coincidence that she got the majority of screen time and focus?

And just coincidence that Will Smith's Deadshot was exactly like every other action hero he's played?

[Baseman]

Wasn't the production studio that is responsible for this movie own by Robbie as well?

[Agent Z]

Oh, so its just coincidence that she got the majority of screen time and focus?

With perhaps the exception of Huntress, none of the other characters got focus that was insignificant and Black Canary has been highly praised.

And just coincidence that Will Smith's Deadshot was exactly like every other action hero he's played?

Film adaptations change the personality of characters all the time (see for instance Iron Man or Guardians of the Galaxy). Some times for the better, some times for the worse. Given they were trying to make the Squad more like conventional heroes/antiheroes, not all of that is Smith's fault.

[skyvolt2000]

A few things-

#2 — Poor IP management. People associate "Birds of Prey" primarily with Barbara Gordon as Oracle or Batgirl... so if you're going to use the BOP brand name to attract its fans, then you should expect that her absence would be a turn-off or at least confusing.

Aside from one tv show & those who read the 32 trades of Birds of Prey-who would know that?

If that is the case shouldn't Justice League movie NOT have Cyborg? Since 95% of the stuff with him is from Teen Titans. Because a lot of New 52 Justice league stuff outside of comics exclude him. And isn't he on Doom Patrol's tv show? No one seems confused.

Into the Spiderverse showcased HOW many spider folks? Nobody got confused.

I think this movie needed to be R-rated. Making it PG-13 might have been good for profit, but I think the movie would have lost its soul without it.

I probably would have gone PG 13 myself and get greedy with an unrated version for a limited run right before the dvd comes out.

With the way things are going WB really needs to have someone be in charge of the DC movies who has a basic understanding because the fact more and more of their movies are underpermoining means something. They are picking people who don't understanding characters.

I think some do but as pointed out Aquaman, Shazam & WW didn't have this issue.

I think an issue is BURNOUT when it comes to certain folks. When you flood the market with certain folks eventually you get BURN OUT.
For far too long Batman sells is the weapon folks want to use when it comes to others. What they fail to realize is while Batman sales-he leaves a larger pile of unsold stuff.
Aquaman, WW, Shazam and most of the Marvel films worked because they were different. Because for ONCE someone gave a you know what about the fans of those guys.

Another issue is making EVERYONE (almost) live in the Batman depressed universe. That does not work for everybody.

[poroto678]

The movie was ok.

I guess my main conclusion was that it wasn't made for us comic book fans cuz we are too picky and complain too much. I guess it was supposed to make money from casual fans and teenage girls (people who mainly aren't familiar with Babs and/or Cassie and think of HQ as some sort of generational statement or some bullshit like that)..

My thoughts:

- Cass Cain: UGH. I try not to go full fan boy here, but it was awful.
- Too much Harley Quinn, which means very little BoP time. The 3 and a half minutes with Helena were amazing. Mary Elizabeth was so hot and badass. Canary was cool too. I'm OK with Montoya, she played a very good Gotham City cop.
- It felt too much like an Amanda Conner HQ comic book, which is ok if you're into that kind of book. I'm not.
- Fight scenes were very very good.
- I really liked Zsasz. He was my favorite thing in this movie along with Helena.

As a DC fan, i really wish DC ha put this money elsewhere, but I guess box office will show 'em that.

[Stanlos]

I feel the same way. I'll pass.

I'm also tired of Harley being shoehorned into everything as the main star.

Pretty much this.

But moreso the seeming absolute lack of respect for the iconic source material and the absence of a big picture view continues to hamstring their efforts.

The movie would have been better received without the use of the BOP and Cassandra Cain licenses and coming up with a new villain. As it stands it left a very nasty taste in my mouth and I will not be rewatching or purchasing. It basically was worse than CATWOMAN in terms of the abuse of the license.

[gregpersons]

Aside from one tv show & those who read the 32 trades of Birds of Prey-who would know that?

If that is the case shouldn't Justice League movie NOT have Cyborg? Since 95% of the stuff with him is from Teen Titans. Because a lot of New 52 Justice league stuff outside of comics exclude him. And isn't he on Doom Patrol's tv show? No one seems confused.

Into the Spiderverse showcased HOW many spider folks? Nobody got confused.

My point is — Why use "Birds of Prey" if you're not using the IP to lure its fans?

I think those examples are a bit different. You wouldn't call a movie "Spider-Verse" and then not have Peter Parker, even though the movie is obviously about the alternate-verse characters.

With Justice League, the roster fluctuates but you wouldn't do a JL movie without Batman or Superman or Wonder Woman. In fact I think you could probably say one of the reasons JL performed poorly was WB marketing was being coy about Superman being in the movie or not because of his 'death.'

I think it's fine to deviate from source material but the "BOP" brand has always included Barbara Gordon as a leading member -- a very popular character as both Oracle and Batgirl -- and so her exclusion simply led to less excitement for a movie called Birds of Prey.

[godisawesome]

*Any* genuine Batgirl, with the Bat iconography, would have been a better core to sell the BoP brand around... because ultimately, if the BoP are supposed to be a heroic group and characters you want to sell to a new audience, then you need to make sure that their launched with a heroic leading lady.

Otherwise, you end up with the situation in the movie - Harley is technically allied to the BoP briefly, but never an actual member, and her story absorbs more of the film than theirs, and they never really get to sell themselves as something strong enough to go forward without her.

You could use Babs, Kate, Cass, or Steph in any number of ways, and better utilized the BoP: Babs as the team leader who’s a peer to them in age, Kate as a more standard “field leader,” Cass as a badass that Canary and Huntress try to connect with outside of the job for her mental health, or Steph as a student of Canary and Huntress with competing viewpoints.

Really, if you wanted Harley to be the main lead, you just aren’t going to get a better fit for her or the other characters than Ivy and Catwoman.

[Agent Z]

I think an issue is BURNOUT when it comes to certain folks.

How does this apply to Birds of Prey? Most of the characters here have never appeared in a movie before and in Cassandra Cain and Renee Montoya's cases rarely been used in adaptations.

For far too long Batman sells is the weapon folks want to use when it comes to others. What they fail to realize is while Batman sales-he leaves a larger pile of unsold stuff.

You do realize that Batman doesn't even appear in this movie, right?

Aquaman, WW, Shazam and most of the Marvel films worked because they were different. Because for ONCE someone gave a you know what about the fans of those guys.

This film exists in the first place because Margot Robbie wanted to give some spotlight to lesser known DC characters.

Another issue is making EVERYONE (almost) live in the Batman depressed universe. That does not work for everybody.

This is just another meme that doesn't apply to reality. Of all the ways to describe this film, depressing isn't one of them.

[gregpersons]

*Any* genuine Batgirl, with the Bat iconography, would have been a better core to sell the BoP brand around... because ultimately, if the BoP are supposed to be a heroic group and characters you want to sell to a new audience, then you need to make sure that their launched with a heroic leading lady.

Otherwise, you end up with the situation in the movie - Harley is technically allied to the BoP briefly, but never an actual member, and her story absorbs more of the film than theirs, and they never really get to sell themselves as something strong enough to go forward without her.

You could use Babs, Kate, Cass, or Steph in any number of ways, and better utilized the BoP: Babs as the team leader who’s a peer to them in age, Kate as a more standard “field leader,” Cass as a badass that Canary and Huntress try to connect with outside of the job for her mental health, or Steph as a student of Canary and Huntress with competing viewpoints.

Really, if you wanted Harley to be the main lead, you just aren’t going to get a better fit for her or the other characters than Ivy and Catwoman.

100% spot on.

Idk if it was already mentioned but David Ayers had a SIRENS pitch or script in development for Margot's Harley for a few months before it morphed into BOP, with Ivy and Catwoman, iirc.

It was the right call to go with a different creative team, but they should've stuck with the characters that already work well with Harley — fellow anti-hero/femme fatales in Gotham.