Birds Of Prey (2020 Film) — Harley Quinn, BOP, and DCEU Discussion (Spoilers)

[SiegePerilous02]

Yeah, that's my opinion, basically. This was never an ensemble movie, just Harley with a known supporting cast

Don't forget NO Barbara. I don't see the race change is needed at all as well. If you want a black heroine, why not pick Vixen? It's just bad casting.

WB and Robbie never intended to do BoP well, they just wanted to use them as supporting characters to boost Harley Quinn, you can see from everywhere that Harley Quinn is the main focus.

A movie can be an ensemble and still have a clear lead. In this case it's Harley. In the case of, say, GoTG it's Peter Quill.

I'd say it's more like Harley was being used to launch the other characters. She splits off from them at the end. The BOP were being set up as a team separate from her, they could probably have had their own movie spun off from this. It seems pretty clear if you watch the movie that that may have been Robbie's intentions. It sadly might not happen now, but even getting them in something like this without Harley seems like it would have been slim.

If we do get a BOP film sans Harley, Barbara (as either Batgirl or Oracle) can easily be added into the sequel. A BOP film franchise without Barbara is BAD, but this is more like a BOP back door pilot than a full BOP film. Her being absent for just this is hardly the end of the world, and Montoya, Canary and Huntress were done justice as far as their characters are concerned. Give the latter two some more comics accurate costumes (preferably the less male gaze-y ones) and we're good.

[Slowpokeking]

A movie can be an ensemble and still have a clear lead. In this case it's Harley. In the case of, say, GoTG it's Peter Quill.

I'd say it's more like Harley was being used to launch the other characters. She splits off from them at the end. The BOP were being set up as a team separate from her, they could probably have had their own movie spun off from this. It seems pretty clear if you watch the movie that that may have been Robbie's intentions. It sadly might not happen now, but even getting them in something like this without Harley seems like it would have been slim.

If we do get a BOP film sans Harley, Barbara (as either Batgirl or Oracle) can easily be added into the sequel. A BOP film franchise without Barbara is BAD, but this is more like a BOP back door pilot than a full BOP film. Her being absent for just this is hardly the end of the world, and Montoya, Canary and Huntress were done justice as far as their characters are concerned. Give the latter two some more comics accurate costumes (preferably the less male gaze-y ones) and we're good.

Not really, Robbie was offered to do a solo or this and she picked it. It's about Harley Quinn all along. All the bad cast and lack of characterization serves such purpose. If we really want to use spin off, Batman makes much more sense and Harley should be used as a villain.

There is no sequel 99% thanks to all the mishandling, even if it succeeds we will get the same butchered version of them like this one.

[SiegePerilous02]

Not really, Robbie was offered to do a solo or this and she picked it. It's about Harley Quinn all along. All the bad cast and lack of characterization serves such purpose. If we really want to use spin off, Batman makes much more sense and Harley should be used as a villain.

There is no sequel 99% thanks to all the mishandling, even if it succeeds we will get the same butchered version of them like this one.

There is no bad cast or bad characterizations for anyone save Cass, so your "proof" that this was the intention all along is non-existent.

[Slowpokeking]

There is no bad cast or bad characterizations for anyone save Cass, so your "proof" that this was the intention all along is non-existent.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, cutting off Barbara, not choosing someone like Blake Lively for Black Canary but the PC choice, probably the worst choice for Montoya among those rumored/audition ones. Making them even unrecognizable compare to the comic appearance. Let all the BoP characters step aside as Harley's support characters instead of focusing them as a heroine organization.

It's named BoP(before the change), it should focus on them first and pick the right cast. How would a superhero movie not fail if the title heroes were not the main focus?

[godisawesome]

A movie can be an ensemble and still have a clear lead. In this case it's Harley. In the case of, say, GoTG it's Peter Quill.

I'd say it's more like Harley was being used to launch the other characters. She splits off from them at the end. The BOP were being set up as a team separate from her, they could probably have had their own movie spun off from this. It seems pretty clear if you watch the movie that that may have been Robbie's intentions. It sadly might not happen now, but even getting them in something like this without Harley seems like it would have been slim.

If we do get a BOP film sans Harley, Barbara (as either Batgirl or Oracle) can easily be added into the sequel. A BOP film franchise without Barbara is BAD, but this is more like a BOP back door pilot than a full BOP film. Her being absent for just this is hardly the end of the world, and Montoya, Canary and Huntress were done justice as far as their characters are concerned. Give the latter two some more comics accurate costumes (preferably the less male gaze-y ones) and we're good.

I do wonder a bit if Robbie might have chosen this script with the Birds over the rumored one with the Sirens if it was closer to a starring vehicle for her rather than a more clear cut team film.

I mean, if my theory that the same rough plot outline, antagonist, and central conflict would be the same with either the Birds or the Sirens, it’s possible that the Sirens plot line might have been less clearly Harley’s show guest-starring other characters, and more of a straight up team story and ensemble tale.

I mean, if you say that some young street urchin has stolen a diamond from Black Mask and an older female criminal and supervillain ends up trying to protect her, that sounds like that might fit Selina Kylo and Holly Robinson a hell of a lot more than Harley and Cassandra. And action scenes in the GCPD with a dangerous combatant, while melee based in the released film, might have been a Poison Ivy scene originally, to demonstrate her power.

It’s possible that Harley was a central figure in both scripts, but that her role was more limited to her breakup with the Joker and friendship with Poison Ivy in a Sirens story, and that the Birds story folded more story and focus into her when Selina and Posion Ivy were eliminated, in particular once characters like Huntress and Black Canary received more ancillary “back door pilot” style introductions and storylines instead of a true ensemble role alongside Quinn.

Maybe Robbie wanted to try having her cake and eating it too, by being in a team film, but still getting more Solo style focus?

[Slowpokeking]

I do wonder a bit if Robbie might have chosen this script with the Birds over the rumored one with the Sirens if it was closer to a starring vehicle for her rather than a more clear cut team film.

I mean, if my theory that the same rough plot outline, antagonist, and central conflict would be the same with either the Birds or the Sirens, it’s possible that the Sirens plot line might have been less clearly Harley’s show guest-starring other characters, and more of a straight up team story and ensemble tale.

I mean, if you say that some young street urchin has stolen a diamond from Black Mask and an older female criminal and supervillain ends up trying to protect her, that sounds like that might fit Selina Kylo and Holly Robinson a hell of a lot more than Harley and Cassandra. And action scenes in the GCPD with a dangerous combatant, while melee based in the released film, might have been a Poison Ivy scene originally, to demonstrate her power.

It’s possible that Harley was a central figure in both scripts, but that her role was more limited to her breakup with the Joker and friendship with Poison Ivy in a Sirens story, and that the Birds story folded more story and focus into her when Selina and Posion Ivy were eliminated, in particular once characters like Huntress and Black Canary received more ancillary “back door pilot” style introductions and storylines instead of a true ensemble role alongside Quinn.

Maybe Robbie wanted to try having her cake and eating it too, by being in a team film, but still getting more Solo style focus?

Obviously that's the case. You can see she said she fell in love with Huntress at first, so that might be why Winstead got the role. And "there is no room for another blonde", even Monroe had such request in bus stop.

Robbie is a very good actress and fits Harley very well, but she should not be given the helm of producer. Imagine giving Brie Larson more power in the MCU movie.

[Agent Z]

Not really, Robbie was offered to do a solo or this and she picked it. It's about Harley Quinn all along.

Do you have any idea how contradictory these two sentences are?

I do wonder a bit if Robbie might have chosen this script with the Birds over the rumored one with the Sirens if it was closer to a starring vehicle for her rather than a more clear cut team film.

I mean, if my theory that the same rough plot outline, antagonist, and central conflict would be the same with either the Birds or the Sirens, it’s possible that the Sirens plot line might have been less clearly Harley’s show guest-starring other characters, and more of a straight up team story and ensemble tale.

I mean, if you say that some young street urchin has stolen a diamond from Black Mask and an older female criminal and supervillain ends up trying to protect her, that sounds like that might fit Selina Kylo and Holly Robinson a hell of a lot more than Harley and Cassandra. And action scenes in the GCPD with a dangerous combatant, while melee based in the released film, might have been a Poison Ivy scene originally, to demonstrate her power.

It’s possible that Harley was a central figure in both scripts, but that her role was more limited to her breakup with the Joker and friendship with Poison Ivy in a Sirens story, and that the Birds story folded more story and focus into her when Selina and Posion Ivy were eliminated, in particular once characters like Huntress and Black Canary received more ancillary “back door pilot” style introductions and storylines instead of a true ensemble role alongside Quinn.

Maybe Robbie wanted to try having her cake and eating it too, by being in a team film, but still getting more Solo style focus?

Harley was the breakout character of Suicide Squad. If she picked a Sirens movies, why would it be any less of a Harley Quinn vehicle as people are accusing this Birds of Prey movie of being? Matt Reeves' Batman movie cast Zoe Kravitz as Catwoman and she is in no way a bigger deal than Robbie.

[Slowpokeking]

Do you have any idea how contradictory these two sentences are?

She was given the choice between a Harley Solo or using BoP to support Harley, it's all about HOW to further establish Harley Quinn, BoP was picked because she thought it was too much for Harley to carry a solo, but BoP was nothing but supporting roles to carry her up.

[Agent Z]

She was given the choice between a Harley Solo or using BoP to support Harley, it's all about HOW to further establish Harley Quinn, BoP was picked because she thought it was too much for Harley to carry a solo, but BoP was nothing but supporting roles to carry her up.

If wanting to establish Harley was her sole motivation, she'd have picked a Harley Quinn solo which didn't require her to share screen time with other main characters. Calling the BoP simple support for Harley is incredibly simplistic given how much development they actually have and the praise they have received.

[Slowpokeking]

If wanting to establish Harley was her sole motivation, she'd have picked a Harley Quinn solo which didn't require her to share screen time with other main characters. Calling the BoP simple support for Harley is incredibly simplistic given how much development they actually have and the praise they have received.

Because she was worrying about Harley could not carry up a solo movie, she needs supporting characters' names, that's all.

Yeah, we want to establish the Justice League, we make the title and let it focus on the Joker, kick out Batman and have bad cast choices then lower them down.

[Agent Z]

Because she was worrying about Harley could not carry up a solo movie, she needs supporting characters' names, that's all.

Parroting this conspiracy theory doesn't make it anymore true.

Yeah, we want to establish the Justice League, we make the title and let it focus on the Joker, kick out Batman and have bad cast choices then lower them down.

Now you're being really absurd.

[Agent Z]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, cutting off Barbara,

Unfortunate, but adaptations change team rosters all the time.

not choosing someone like Blake Lively for Black Canary but the PC choice,

Blake Lively is not a better choice for Black Canary just because she superficially resembles the character. Zoe Kravitz's depiction has also received positive reviews so clearly they made the right choice.

probably the worst choice for Montoya among those rumored/audition ones.

Says you.

It's named BoP(before the change), it should focus on them first and pick the right cast.

And they did.

[Ramsay Snow]

My thoughts go back to this movie all the time. Best 7,00 Euros I spent all week and it made me buy BoP by Gail Simone on Amazon, plus the movie tie-in for Huntress (already own it... Cry for Blood, a classic) and Batman Arkham Black Mask.

You must've had a dull week......That early part of Gail Simone's BoP run is fantastic. If this film inspired others to buy that new tpb release, then it did a service.

I haven't read Cry for Blood, I might need to check that out. I assume it's better than Cry of the Huntress, which I didn't care for.

In a movie like this I don't mind plotholes or twisted adaptations of classic characters. Its entertaining and a better action movie than all of the Fast and the Furious/Transformer crapfests combined.

It is NOT RIPPING OFF Deadpool and really close to the Palmiotti/Connor comics run. You can enjoy this movie despite that and I haven't liked HQ since BTAS ended.

I thought it was at the same level as those dumb Fast and the Furious & Transformers movies (Which I put Kingsman at the same level of, although Kingsman is different in tone).

I didn't say BoP ripped off Deadpool. It's the same type of movie (Excessive humor mixed with a superhero theme), just nowhere near as good.....I'm honestly surprised most of the complaints have been about the portrayal/casting of certain characters. I thought this was worse than any of the Snyder films, and worse than Suicide Squad. To each their own, I guess.

[kjn]

Having picked a bit more on this movie since I saw it, here are some thoughts on the feminist themes it picks up. Because as I read somewhere, this film is the girl's restroom in a nightclub, and it feels like an apt comparison. It shows a lot of the ways that girls or women both can tear each other down, and how they can build up and protect each other.

The plot opens with Harley reacting to malicious girl gossip, that she will only run back to Joker as soon as he beckons. In another scene, Black Canary chooses to stand back as Black Mask publically humiliates a woman and forces her to strip. We also have the scene where Renee Montoya's ex-girlfriend rats on her, despite wanting to help. We get to see the strategies that women use to adapt to and to survive in the patriarchy: in effect how patriarchy corrupts women as well.

Then we have a key scene where the movie's thesis on Black Mask explicitly becomes text, as Black Canary sings in Roman's nightclub. He is literally lost in the wilderness, lost in the bitterness, lost in the loneliness. But while the original song sings from the perspective of a man to another man, and takes a possessive slant, Jurnee Smollett-Bell's performance of the song changes it to be about men who are unable to see women.

But then the movie sets out to build models for female solidarity. Black Canary might want to keep her head down and most certainly not be a hero, but she's unwilling to let Harley Quinn be abducted, no matter what she thinks of her as a person. She might not be willing to inform on Roman, but she is willing to go against him in order to help Cass. Harley Quinn notices hair issues and lends a hairband. The characters consistently points out how great and awesome the other characters are. Perhaps most importantly, they are shown to trust each other.

[Korath]

There is no bad cast or bad characterizations for anyone save Cass, so your "proof" that this was the intention all along is non-existent.

Even in Cass' case, the cast is really strong.

The characterization is so far off that this Cassandra Cain is basically just an homonym of the real one, but the character was touching and the actress skilled enough to work perfectly in the movie.