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  1. #106
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvelgirl View Post
    I don't hear any cinema expert talking about how MCU has left a massive footprint. Half of the best picture nominees already have resentment for Endgame. Little want to bring up MCU anymore in any conversation about cinema. Endgame's loss was the Oscars sending a message that they agree to that. Something that has destroyed the reputation and perception of comic movies should not be seen as a successor to Star Wars. Star Wars did not damage its own genre, MCU did.

    The legacy we have is to make less Endgame movies and more Jokers to win Oscars. This is not a massive footprint, Its a small footnote, and I am not a massive Joker fan.
    Cinema experts don't really decide what lasts and what doesn't; what lasts is what people in general continue watching down the road.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    THE MCU has, yes... but not necessarily an individual movie. Compare it to James Bond. James Bond is a franchise, true. But so many films stand out as unique films, as iconic pieces of cinema BEYOND a franchise. The MCU will be remembered for a long, long time (forever? We don't know... lot of 'beloved' franchises have disappeared when 40 years have passed). Where as Endgame? Maybe not.
    Fair enough. Time will tell.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  2. #107
    CBR's Good Fairy Kieran_Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    Because I thought it the better movie, more cinematic, as Scorsese would say.
    I think Shakespeare in Love is very cinematic too; both were up for Cinematography, Art Direction, Hair&Make-up and Costume Design. Visually they both delivered, just in very different ways.

    SIDE NOTE: also I think the Thin Red Line was splitting the war film vote that year. And what a great year for film. Truman Show, Little Voice, Gods and Monsters, Life is Beautiful. GOOD YEAR!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    I hear a lot more people talking about SPR than SIL. Your mileage may vary.
    I'm an actor, so yeah, I hear about Shakespeare in Love lots (rarely hear anyone I know mentions Saving Private Ryan anymore).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    Another example would be the 1969 Awards. "2001" was not even nominated for best picture. "Oliver!" won. It's not even close which movie has a larger footprint today.
    Well... yes and no. Oliver! (1968) is based on the stage musical, BUT would that musical still be performed all round the world every year were it not for the film? Unlikely. It's not like the musical is irrelevant today. Kubrick's film, of course, is iconic (and I would say more iconic) BUT Olivier! isn't forgotten. Compare that to the Apartment (1960) (a wonderful film), but who ever references it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The question of what movie has the "most footprint" or if a moving having a "footprint" is a criteria for excellence is pretty hard and close to inconclusive. And that's more or less why all awards (be it Nobel Prize for Literature, Oscars, Palme d'Or) and so on are a mug's game. An award judges stuff in a single year but it's next to impossible to predict whether a movie released in the final months of a year will somehow have the most footprint or lasting importance in the decades to come.
    I will also add, as people are debating "what will last"... just because it lasts doesn't mean it's good. Just because it fades away doesn't mean it's bad. Plan 9 From Outer Space (1959) is probably referenced more often than a lot of films from 1959. Doesn't mean it's better

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The Oscars have always favored safe, and conventional movies over bold ones but even if it weren't, predicting the footprint would have been a difficult task.
    That's not true. Hell, Saving Private Ryan was "the safe" Oscar bet, and Shakespeare in Love won instead (the last time a comedy won before that was in the 70s)
    "We are Shakespeare. We are Michelangelo. We are Tchaikovsky. We are Turing. We are Mercury. We are Wilde. We are Lincoln, Lorca, Leonardo da Vinci. We are Alexander the Great. We are Fredrick the Great. We are Rustin. We are Addams. We are Marsha! Marsha Marsha Marsha! We so generous, we DeGeneres. We are Ziggy Stardust hooked to the silver screen. Controversially we are Malcolm X. We are Plato. We are Aristotle. We are RuPaul, god dammit! And yes, we are Woolf."

  3. #108
    Death becomes you Osiris-Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTTT View Post

    1. Best Actor- So now this award is going to go to future actors who play the Joker now? It might as well be renamed the Best Joker. I think Joaquin Phoenix is a great actor but Adam Driver deserved it this year for Marriage Story. Joker is a good movie but overpraised.
    .
    I don't understand how you can extrapolate that into the future. Only one person has ever won Best Actor for playing Joker. (Heath Ledger won for Best Supporting Actor and Jared Leto got nothing)

  4. #109
    CBR's Good Fairy Kieran_Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osiris-Rex View Post
    I don't understand how you can extrapolate that into the future. Only one person has ever won Best Actor for playing Joker. (Heath Ledger won for Best Supporting Actor and Jared Leto got nothing)
    Winning for Actor or Supporting doesn't really matter, it's the character that matters. Joker and Don Corleone are the only characters that two people have won Oscars for playing. Not a single character in the history of the Oscars has had three people win an Oscar for playing them. So the chances of anyone every winning for playing Joker is slim to nonexistent.
    "We are Shakespeare. We are Michelangelo. We are Tchaikovsky. We are Turing. We are Mercury. We are Wilde. We are Lincoln, Lorca, Leonardo da Vinci. We are Alexander the Great. We are Fredrick the Great. We are Rustin. We are Addams. We are Marsha! Marsha Marsha Marsha! We so generous, we DeGeneres. We are Ziggy Stardust hooked to the silver screen. Controversially we are Malcolm X. We are Plato. We are Aristotle. We are RuPaul, god dammit! And yes, we are Woolf."

  5. #110
    Amazing Member Valentis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    I think Shakespeare in Love is very cinematic too; both were up for Cinematography, Art Direction, Hair&Make-up and Costume Design. Visually they both delivered, just in very different ways.

    SIDE NOTE: also I think the Thin Red Line was splitting the war film vote that year. And what a great year for film. Truman Show, Little Voice, Gods and Monsters, Life is Beautiful. GOOD YEAR!!!


    I'm an actor, so yeah, I hear about Shakespeare in Love lots (rarely hear anyone I know mentions Saving Private Ryan anymore).


    Well... yes and no. Oliver! (1968) is based on the stage musical, BUT would that musical still be performed all round the world every year were it not for the film? Unlikely. It's not like the musical is irrelevant today. Kubrick's film, of course, is iconic (and I would say more iconic) BUT Olivier! isn't forgotten. Compare that to the Apartment (1960) (a wonderful film), but who ever references it?


    I will also add, as people are debating "what will last"... just because it lasts doesn't mean it's good. Just because it fades away doesn't mean it's bad. Plan 9 From Outer Space (1959) is probably referenced more often than a lot of films from 1959. Doesn't mean it's better


    That's not true. Hell, Saving Private Ryan was "the safe" Oscar bet, and Shakespeare in Love won instead (the last time a comedy won before that was in the 70s)
    Didn't Shakespeare in love winning have a personal connection to Harvey Weinstein been a power player in Hollywood? The Oscars were a sham in 1999.

  6. #111
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    Well... yes and no. Oliver! (1968) is based on the stage musical, BUT would that musical still be performed all round the world every year were it not for the film? Unlikely. It's not like the musical is irrelevant today. Kubrick's film, of course, is iconic (and I would say more iconic) BUT Olivier! isn't forgotten. Compare that to the Apartment (1960) (a wonderful film), but who ever references it?
    Not sure about that. Here in New York, Oliver is still a much loved Musical Play. Much more than the movie. And I still talk about The Apartment, certainly as much as the other nominees that year. But again, back to the central point, the Oscar winner is always not the most revered or best remembered movie for that particular year.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  7. #112
    CBR's Good Fairy Kieran_Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    Not sure about that. Here in New York, Oliver is still a much loved Musical Play. Much more than the movie.
    HA! I lived in New York too, and it's ludicrous to think the musical would still be done as often (across the world), every year, across languages, based NOT on the film, but the original 1960 musical in London. Rubbish. Probably (unless it was an avant-garde production) last time Oliver! was done on Broadway the costumes and set were influenced by the film. And performances too, I'd guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    And I still talk about The Apartment, certainly as much as the other nominees that year.
    You have to realise most people don't talk about (or have even heard of) the Apartment, though? Right? Just because you do, doesn't mean it's still in main circulation of knowledge. Also, (I could be reading that last bit wrong, but) I have to ask, what was the context that last brought up Elmer Gantry (1960) into conversation

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    But again, back to the central point, the Oscar winner is always not the most revered or best remembered movie for that particular year.
    (I assume you mean "not always", rather than "always not", and if so) Agreed. Last time Best Picture was won by my favourite film of the year was Birdman (2014).
    "We are Shakespeare. We are Michelangelo. We are Tchaikovsky. We are Turing. We are Mercury. We are Wilde. We are Lincoln, Lorca, Leonardo da Vinci. We are Alexander the Great. We are Fredrick the Great. We are Rustin. We are Addams. We are Marsha! Marsha Marsha Marsha! We so generous, we DeGeneres. We are Ziggy Stardust hooked to the silver screen. Controversially we are Malcolm X. We are Plato. We are Aristotle. We are RuPaul, god dammit! And yes, we are Woolf."

  8. #113
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    HA! I lived in New York too, and it's ludicrous to think the musical would still be done as often (across the world), every year, across languages, based NOT on the film, but the original 1960 musical in London. Rubbish. Probably (unless it was an avant-garde production) last time Oliver! was done on Broadway the costumes and set were influenced by the film. And performances too, I'd guess.


    You have to realise most people don't talk about (or have even heard of) the Apartment, though? Right? Just because you do, doesn't mean it's still in main circulation of knowledge. Also, (I could be reading that last bit wrong, but) I have to ask, what was the context that last brought up Elmer Gantry (1960) into conversation


    (I assume you mean "not always", rather than "always not", and if so) Agreed. Last time Best Picture was won by my favourite film of the year was Birdman (2014).
    Elmer Gantry, recently, in reference to Trump. "Face in the Crowd" as well.
    Yes "not always", cursor slip.
    Either Way 2001 is still way more influential, relevant revered and everything else today as a movie than Oliver. That was my point.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  9. #114
    CBR's Good Fairy Kieran_Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    Elmer Gantry, recently, in reference to Trump. "Face in the Crowd" as well.
    Huh. Surprising.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    Either Way 2001 is still way more influential, relevant revered and everything else today as a movie than Oliver.
    I disagree. More people see the musical than know of 2001; and the musical is around because of the film. Outside of film fans, I actually think Oliver! is the more iconic one. I DON'T THINK IT SHOULD BE! Even non-theatre people see musicals in a community. I'd be surprised if at-least 5 states in America weren't putting on the musical RIGHT NOW! How many states are screening 2001 right now?

    To be clear: 2001 is iconic, I'm not saying it isn't. But I think you're mistaking a piece of information film fans know with the general public. Show random members of the public a monolith and show them a boy in a flat-cap holding up an empty bowl. I bet you more could identify Oliver! first.
    "We are Shakespeare. We are Michelangelo. We are Tchaikovsky. We are Turing. We are Mercury. We are Wilde. We are Lincoln, Lorca, Leonardo da Vinci. We are Alexander the Great. We are Fredrick the Great. We are Rustin. We are Addams. We are Marsha! Marsha Marsha Marsha! We so generous, we DeGeneres. We are Ziggy Stardust hooked to the silver screen. Controversially we are Malcolm X. We are Plato. We are Aristotle. We are RuPaul, god dammit! And yes, we are Woolf."

  10. #115
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    I have to completely disagree with your assessment there. The state of people knowing classic Broadway musicals is pretty dismal. But cest la vie.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  11. #116
    CBR's Good Fairy Kieran_Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    I have to completely disagree with your assessment there. The state of people knowing classic Broadway musicals is pretty dismal. But cest la vie.
    It's not a Broadway musical, it's a film. Most people who know it, probably don't even realise it was a musical first. It's a family fun film played all the time at Christmas, done all the time across the world in communities, in major theatres. Sorry, 2001: A Space Odyssey is NICHE compared to the plethora of people who know "please sir, can I have some more", "gotta pick a pocket or two", "Food glorious food". No, we'll have to agree to disagree. I see no evidence the general populous would know of 2001 more. Hell I'm in the industry, and it's AMAZING how many (what to me are) iconic films actors or crew have never heard of. And they actually have an interest in this stuff (shockingly, sometimes)
    "We are Shakespeare. We are Michelangelo. We are Tchaikovsky. We are Turing. We are Mercury. We are Wilde. We are Lincoln, Lorca, Leonardo da Vinci. We are Alexander the Great. We are Fredrick the Great. We are Rustin. We are Addams. We are Marsha! Marsha Marsha Marsha! We so generous, we DeGeneres. We are Ziggy Stardust hooked to the silver screen. Controversially we are Malcolm X. We are Plato. We are Aristotle. We are RuPaul, god dammit! And yes, we are Woolf."

  12. #117
    Spider Sense is Tingling Dangerous's Avatar
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    Phoenix deserved to win.
    As did the lady who scored Joker.
    MY POWERS HAVE RETURNED TO ME!! I HAVEN'T LOST THEM!! I'M STILL SPIDER-MAN!

  13. #118
    CBR's Good Fairy Kieran_Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dangerous View Post
    Phoenix deserved to win.
    Ha! For a moment I thought you meant Dark Phoenix and I was about to go off on one
    "We are Shakespeare. We are Michelangelo. We are Tchaikovsky. We are Turing. We are Mercury. We are Wilde. We are Lincoln, Lorca, Leonardo da Vinci. We are Alexander the Great. We are Fredrick the Great. We are Rustin. We are Addams. We are Marsha! Marsha Marsha Marsha! We so generous, we DeGeneres. We are Ziggy Stardust hooked to the silver screen. Controversially we are Malcolm X. We are Plato. We are Aristotle. We are RuPaul, god dammit! And yes, we are Woolf."

  14. #119
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    i have never seen Oliver! playing at local movie theaters duing Xmas.

    and I have never met anyone who doesnt kno 2001. Last time Oliver came up in conversation, most hadnt seen it.

    I believe we are at an impass, unless we charge Gallup to do a poll.


    Now back to everyone forgetting Endgame while Parasite becomes a household word.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  15. #120
    Fantastic Member Marvelgirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dangerous View Post
    Phoenix deserved to win.
    As did the lady who scored Joker.
    Phoenix did deserve to win. Not 100% convinced Joker should have been nominated for best picture. Philips got too carried way in making sure Phoenix delivered the performance of a lifetime that he forgot about the overall scope of the movie. Joker is still a better nominated best picture movie than Black Panther and a cleaner win than Heath Ledger winning for Joker. I will give it that.

    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Cinema experts don't really decide what lasts and what doesn't; what lasts is what people in general continue watching down the road.



    Fair enough. Time will tell.
    People in general don't decide what lasts. They are not experts in the field to decide the long term ramification of movies.

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