Bart vs Barry: Should this happen in the future ?

[Otto Gruenwald]

That's exactly what Flash needs. More stupid Flash vs Flash stories over stupid timeline problems. Why don't we erase Joan from reality and how Jay absorb the power of Krakkle to try and bring her back, murdering (insert 5 random D-listers here) while he does so? Let's just keep going until the name Flash is forever associated with dead relatives and despair.

[mikelmcknight72]

No. I'm so very tired of hero vs. hero, even in just the interpersonal conflict sense. Plus, Barry and Bart might have some personality friction, but both are too intrinsically good to let that get much in the way of being grandpa & grandson from the future. Barry would get over the shock and love him. Still room for Max and Jay to be father figures.

[Dred]

You're assuming an immutable timeline, where all instances of time travel have already happened and been accounted for. We know that's not the case in the DC Universe, as we've seen time travel change history many times. If Barry went to raise his children, that would change the history of the Iris living in the present, which would also change the history of the Wally living in the present.

But Barry going to the future to have his kids at all changes the timeline of all the people in the future who they interact with. Which was a pretty big deal considering his kids inspired the Legion of Superheroes.

I can't spell this out any plainer or simpler for you. Barry already altered the timeline in the first place to start his family in the future. Consciously. That was the plan. The fact that Iris' timeline existed with no Barry was always in the supposition that he stayed dead, because of course he would go back to the future to raise his kids if he ever came back to life. The writers consciously ignored that glaring hole in the story and it just ends up with Barry being a deadbeat dad.

[Lee]

But Barry going to the future to have his kids at all changes the timeline of all the people in the future who they interact with. Which was a pretty big deal considering his kids inspired the Legion of Superheroes.

It depends on the rules in play. If time is linear, moving forward from an origin point, then travelling forward in time is no different than Captain America being in frozen in ice and getting thawed out decades later. Travelling forward in time and then travelling back is where changes would happen under that rule set.

But DC comics have never had a consistent set of rules for how time travel works. It's more about what works for the story being told at the time.

The fact that Iris' timeline existed with no Barry was always in the supposition that he stayed dead, because of course he would go back to the future to raise his kids if he ever came back to life. The writers consciously ignored that glaring hole in the story and it just ends up with Barry being a deadbeat dad.

In that era of Flash comics, time travel was shown to be cumulative, rather than one self-consistent timeline where all instances of time travel were pre-destined and accounted for.

That's how we had one timeline where Nora died in old age of natural causes, and another where she was murdered by Reverse-Flash.

Barry's revival itself is another change made by the Reverse-Flash. After his revival in Blackest Night, he went back and revived Barry during the time of Final Crisis. The Final Crisis and Blackest Night we read are not those of the original timeline. In theory, there would be a Final Crisis and Blackest Night in the "Nora lived" timeline, that Barry didn't participate in, but did lead to Reverse-Flash's resurrection.

Iris had returned to the present day long before Final Crisis. So when Reverse-Flash revived Barry, the Iris West he was reunited with was the Iris West who had raised two kids in the future.

It's at this point that Barry could choose to go to the future and raise those kids with her. Doing so would create a new timeline. It would change the history of the Iris he had just been reunited with. In turn, this would also change the history of everyone Iris interacted with after she returned from the future.

Is this something Iris would want? Would she want the past 25 years or so of her life to be overwritten?

(At the time, all a bit moot, since they'd decided that positive Speed Force users couldn't change the past, only Negative Speed Force users.)

[Dred]

It depends on the rules in play. If time is linear, moving forward from an origin point, then travelling forward in time is no different than Captain America being in frozen in ice and getting thawed out decades later. Travelling forward in time and then travelling back is where changes would happen under that rule set.

But DC comics have never had a consistent set of rules for how time travel works. It's more about what works for the story being told at the time.

Great, so Barry should've always just gone forward in time.

In that era of Flash comics, time travel was shown to be cumulative, rather than one self-consistent timeline where all instances of time travel were pre-destined and accounted for.

That's how we had one timeline where Nora died in old age of natural causes, and another where she was murdered by Reverse-Flash.

Barry's revival itself is another change made by the Reverse-Flash. After his revival in Blackest Night, he went back and revived Barry during the time of Final Crisis. The Final Crisis and Blackest Night we read are not those of the original timeline. In theory, there would be a Final Crisis and Blackest Night in the "Nora lived" timeline, that Barry didn't participate in, but did lead to Reverse-Flash's resurrection.

Iris had returned to the present day long before Final Crisis. So when Reverse-Flash revived Barry, the Iris West he was reunited with was the Iris West who had raised two kids in the future.

It's at this point that Barry could choose to go to the future and raise those kids with her. Doing so would create a new timeline. It would change the history of the Iris he had just been reunited with. In turn, this would also change the history of everyone Iris interacted with after she returned from the future.

Is this something Iris would want? Would she want the past 25 years or so of her life to be overwritten?

(At the time, all a bit moot, since they'd decided that positive Speed Force users couldn't change the past, only Negative Speed Force users.)

If you're saying the timeline already changed to a point where things were different in the future where Iris raised her kids then that would just be your typical causal paradox. If you're saying that, oh no, it might make a causal paradox if Barry goes to raise his kids then you've already throw that baby out with the bathwater.

It's a giant plot hole no matter what way you spin it. Not only does Barry end up a deadbeat dad, he doesn't even think about them because we get his entire inner monologue because he's the main character of The Flash after his return. It's just really awful the second you think anything about it. But everything about it is: **** everything else so long as Barry's back. Even Barry's own believability as a decent man.

[Lee]

Great, so Barry should've always just gone forward in time.

He did. He probably would have stayed there if it wasn't for the Anti-Monitor trying to destroy all of existence.

If you're saying the timeline already changed to a point where things were different in the future where Iris raised her kids then that would just be your typical causal paradox. If you're saying that, oh no, it might make a causal paradox if Barry goes to raise his kids then you've already throw that baby out with the bathwater.

It's a giant plot hole no matter what way you spin it. Not only does Barry end up a deadbeat dad, he doesn't even think about them because we get his entire inner monologue because he's the main character of The Flash after his return. It's just really awful the second you think anything about it. But everything about it is: **** everything else so long as Barry's back. Even Barry's own believability as a decent man.

You're not thinking about how the instances of time travel stack cumulatively.

Iris travelled back in time so Wally could save Bart's life.

Then Thawne was resurrected and travelled back in time to revive Barry during Final Crisis.

This resurrected Barry, in this new timeline, is reunited with the Iris who'd already raised their kids alone. Barry didn't have the opportunity to raise his kids in the previous timelines, because he was dead.

But if he decided to raise his kids at this point, that would create a new timeline, and would mean overwriting the last 25 years of Iris's life. And do the Tornado Twins still become the same people? Are Bart and Jenni still born? If Bart is born, does Iris still go back in time alone and pretend that Barry is dead, to preserve Wally's timeline? If Bart is never born, or becomes a slightly different person, what happens to our Bart? Does he wake up in a timeline where nobody knows who he is? A timeline with two Barts?

But at the time, the idea was that the Flashes couldn't change the past. Changing Iris's past (in the future) would be changing the past of the DC Universe.

[Dred]

You seem to just not get what is causal and what is not. The timeline isn't Barry Dies -> Wally Becomes The Flash -> Iris takes Bart back in time -> Barry comes back to life. Barry comes back to life before Iris goes back to the past. That's just how it is. You are acting like there's a diverging timeline when there never has been. That's how Marvel solve all their problems, DC is very explicitly (especially at that time in history) one causal universe. It's why Flashpoint wasn't just some alternate timeline, it was the same timeline until it was undone with more time travel. . And even if there had been, then all the more reason for Barry to go back.

Barry coming back to life already changed the future. A future that was adamant about Barry being dead and never coming back. HIS EXISTENCE. ALREADY. CHANGED. THE TIMELINE. I just do not understand why this is so hard for you to grasp and why you keep repeating yourself without actually addressing the things I say in the slightest.

Ignoring all of that, though, if your fall back seriously is just whether or not Iris' would've rather lived her life raising her kids with the love of her life or not...then I don't know how to respond to that. She was certainly okay with time travel for family matters -- QED, Bart.

[Lee]

You seem to just not get what is causal and what is not. The timeline isn't Barry Dies -> Wally Becomes The Flash -> Iris takes Bart back in time -> Barry comes back to life. Barry comes back to life before Iris goes back to the past.

After being revived in Blackest Night, Thawne made two major changes to the timeline.

1. He murdered Nora
2. He revived Barry Allen during Final Crisis

It's unclear what order he did these in, and from a reader's perspective we saw the results of both together, so for the sake of simplicity let's assume he did both of these things on the same trip.

This is the "Nora is Murdered" timeline.

However, when Iris returned to the past to have Wally save Bart's life, she was still in the "Nora Lived" timeline. This is evidenced in Flash vol. 2 #215.

So Iris's return trip with Bart took precedence over Thawne's trip to revive Barry and murder Nora. The timeline that Thawne edited already had Iris and Bart in the present day.

Why and how Iris's return from the 30th century took precedence over Thawne's time travel - why it happened "first" - was never explained. But it did.

A possible explanation:

In theory, before Iris took Bart to the past, there would have been a timeline that didn't have Bart in the past.

In Flash: Rebirth, Thawne says that he was able to revive Barry during Final Crisis because the "door" to Barry Allen's presence in Speed Force was "left open" after Barry briefly returned to save Bart from Superboy Prime in Infinite Crisis.

So in the "no Impulse" timeline, Thawne would have been revived during Blackest Night, but Barry's consciousness would still be lost in the Speed Force.

Timeline A: No Impulse > Thawne is revived, but can't revive Barry > Iris takes Bart to the past, creating timeline B

Timeline B: Impulse and Iris arrive in the present > Barry saves Bart from Superboy Prime > Thawne is revived > Thawne is able to go back in time to revive Barry and murder Nora, creating timeline C

Timeline C: Nora is murdered > Impulse and Iris arrive in the present > Barry saves Bart from Superboy Prime > Barry is revived by Thawne > Thawne is revived