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  1. #481
    Y'know. Pav's Avatar
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    I've been thinking about the logistics of Destiny's knowledge (whether or not that's really useful).

    She appears to know that mutants will establish Krokoa in the future.

    Yet it seems as though whether or not Mystique can bring her back is unknown to her.

    If that's true, might that lack of certainty itself be evidence that Mystique fails to resurrect her?

    -Pav, who is curious what others think...
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  2. #482
    Incredible Member houndsofluv's Avatar
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    Been a couple hours since I read this issue and I can't get over the sheer quality of the art. Buffagni and Gho's collective style was perfect for the story, all kinds of moodiness and more than capable of capturing the high-concept settings in sumptuous detail...the panels where we see Mystique infiltrate Orchis for the second time were particularly stellar, same with the pink glow surrounding Dr Gregor's lab just wow I can't get it out of my head

  3. #483
    Militantly Indifferent Kisinith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pav View Post
    I've been thinking about the logistics of Destiny's knowledge (whether or not that's really useful).

    She appears to know that mutants will establish Krokoa in the future.

    Yet it seems as though whether or not Mystique can bring her back is unknown to her.

    If that's true, might that lack of certainty itself be evidence that Mystique fails to resurrect her?

    -Pav, who is curious what others think...
    I think people are are wrong to take everything she says at face value. Oracles in fiction rarely give clear unambiguous answers. I doubt Destiny saw an "either or" situation in the future. Rather, I think its far more likely that what she said was designed to provoke Mystique into a course of action.

  4. #484
    Mighty Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pav View Post
    I've been thinking about the logistics of Destiny's knowledge (whether or not that's really useful).

    She appears to know that mutants will establish Krokoa in the future.

    Yet it seems as though whether or not Mystique can bring her back is unknown to her.

    If that's true, might that lack of certainty itself be evidence that Mystique fails to resurrect her?

    -Pav, who is curious what others think...
    I have always seen Destiny powers similar with the Greek Oracle of Delphi,it´s famous for giving prophecies but not always having the desired effect of the ppl who asked for that prophecy, an example in the comics could be Destiny actions during Days of Future Past, she was indeed trying to save mutants from Kelly but didn´t think about the effects of her actions.

    Same with Mystique she thought Rogue would love her again after saving her life but she just ended being more hated than ever by her adopted daughter.

    And Destiny herself for some reason didn´t talk about Moira being alive and her being the main reason why Magneto and Xavier were keeping her from being ressurected. This makes me doubt Destiny motives, She effectively didn´t really SEE Moira during this time in Krakoa so she REALLY doesn´t know why they are keeping themselves blind by banning precognitive people? when she´s supposed to be the ONLY ONE who can see Moira even when she doesn´t want to or she willinglly left out Moira´s existence from the talk as a way of using Mystique´s single mindness when it comes to her to take revenge on Moira and destroy her plans for trying to screw with her personally? or she didn´t want Mystique to know about Moira from the get go because she´s aware of how unestable Mystique is during this time and how neccesary Moira is to keep Krakoa´s existence but still wants to take revenge just in the case she´s not brought back?
    Last edited by Lucyinthesky; 02-15-2020 at 01:24 PM.
    "The time for subtlety is passing. Now is the time for change." [New Mutants (Vol. 1) #38]

  5. #485
    Proud Krakoan Jbenito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    I have always seen Destiny powers similar with the Greek Oracle of Delphi,it´s famous for giving prophecies but not always having the desired effect of the ppl who asked for that prophecy, an example in the comics could be Destiny actions during Days of Future Past, she was indeed trying to save mutants from Kelly but didn´t think about the effects of her actions.

    Same with Mystique she thought Rogue would love her again after saving her life but she just ended being more hated than ever by her adopted daughter.

    And Destiny herself for some reason didn´t talk about Moira being alive and her being the main reason why Magneto and Xavier were keeping her from being ressurected. This makes me doubt Destiny motives, She effectively didn´t really SEE Moira during this time in Krakoa so she REALLY doesn´t know why they are keeping themselves blind by banning precognitive people? when she´s supposed to be the ONLY ONE who can see Moira even when she doesn´t want to or she willinglly left out Moira´s existence from the talk as a way of using Mystique´s single mindness when it comes to her to take revenge on Moira and destroy her plans for trying to screw with her personally? or she didn´t want Mystique to know about Moira from the get go because she´s aware of how unestable Mystique is during this time and how neccesary Moira is to keep Krakoa´s existence but still wants to take revenge just in the case she´s not brought back?
    Very intriguing stuff you present, the last sentence especially. Wouldn't it be a kick in the pants if Destiny is actually the ultimate hero - she sees Raven as the biggest danger to Krakoa so she's setting her on a course that will force Charles/Erik's hand to either end her or exile her? It would be heartbreaking but delicious.
    Boop! Krakoa forever!

  6. #486
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    It's weird both mystique and Destiny basically torched Moira and Destiny is just nuts as far as I can see,she has seen the end of things so if for once we assume she saw a harsh end to mutantdom since she says those words almost apocalyptically.So is she saying Krakoa leads to that?If so why did she not see this while telling Moira to change her path in life 3.How is it that she didn't see that Moira would fight for the mutant cause in all the other lives? if she knows Moira as well as she can she knows the mutants always lose.She even hints that Moira has at most 11 lives no more meaning number 11 is probably the life of the Shiar Golem that Moira has killed to fake her death.So how is it that she now wants Krakoa burnt,I mean did she also see herself leading to its destruction or is she doing a mercy killing destroying it before a fate worse than destruction befalls it but then destruction is destruction and I see absolutely no sense in all the high and mighty talk she was spewing to Moira before life 3 , at this rate Destiny needs to be in the same ward Legion is!

  7. #487
    Mighty Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jbenito View Post
    Very intriguing stuff you present, the last sentence especially. Wouldn't it be a kick in the pants if Destiny is actually the ultimate hero - she sees Raven as the biggest danger to Krakoa so she's setting her on a course that will force Charles/Erik's hand to either end her or exile her? It would be heartbreaking but delicious.
    I didn´t see it this way I thought this was just a precaution of Destiny in the case she´s not brought back but your take it´s a possibility as if this indeed happens, yes I will feel deeply for poor Raven when even her most loved one doesn´t trust her anymore and has plans to stop her. Right now everyone is using her, even Irene, in one way or the other and that´s really unfair especially when it doesn´t have to be that way, she could use the Krakoa situation to fix her relationship with her children but maybe she just see that as too out of her hands possibility and just wants to expend her days with Irene back, no matter what she has to do.

    Rev9: I don´t think Destiny is mad but she can be quite dangerous and manipulative, at this point she´s making Raven look as the nice one between the two of them and that´s saying something
    Last edited by Lucyinthesky; 02-15-2020 at 02:22 PM.
    "The time for subtlety is passing. Now is the time for change." [New Mutants (Vol. 1) #38]

  8. #488
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by houndsofluv View Post
    Been a couple hours since I read this issue and I can't get over the sheer quality of the art. Buffagni and Gho's collective style was perfect for the story, all kinds of moodiness and more than capable of capturing the high-concept settings in sumptuous detail...the panels where we see Mystique infiltrate Orchis for the second time were particularly stellar, same with the pink glow surrounding Dr Gregor's lab just wow I can't get it out of my head
    I feel the same...100%
    I want Bufagni to alternate with Leinil Yu on art duties on a regular basis. The visual artistic look of this issue was absolute perfection.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  9. #489
    Cosmic Sandwich Metal Sphere's Avatar
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    Man, this discussion is great. The more you guys broke it down the more it seems like Irene's comments to Raven are super manipulative. She can see Krakoa, she can see that mutants create it as a paradise, she can see that resurrection is central to it. She can see that its denizens will promise to bring her back, but will refuse to do so repeatedly. But she can't see that Moira (someone she could see multiple LIVES worth of futures) is responsible for its creation, and she could see those futures so clearly she could actually number what her final life would be. Is Krakoa's No-Place really that good of a place to hide? But there's a portal out of it to a major city on Earth. So unless Moira stays in there 100% of the time Destiny could see such a major actor.

    This message to Mystique is just meant to manipulate her into getting her resurrected immediately. She knows Raven's basically a frothing animal with little care for anything beyond herself, and IMO it's meant to impart to the viewer that Destiny is just a selfish and cruel monster who'll destroy things if she doesn't get what she wants.

  10. #490
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    The way I see it...Destiny's resurrection is vitally important for some reason, the very least of which might be to keep Moira in check and to ensure she stays on the right track to mutant existence and survival in the future and because she's seen how the eons-long game played out.
    Irene loves Raven and I don't believe she's manipulating her by forcing her hand in the matter of her resurrection, but she knows that her presence on Krakoa is necessary regardless of what Moira may think and say and do so, at this juncture she has very little choice but to get Mystique to force Xavier and Magneto to go against Moira when it comes to her, specifically. (Moira's ban on precogs has to do with Irene and only Irene, regardless of what she told Xavier and Magneto).
    As For Mystique...I don't think she cares either way, she just wants Destiny back but Charles and Erik keep stringing her along..and if I were in her shoes, after the third time, I'd go renegade on their asses...the voice of my long-dead love would not have had to ring in my ears for me to rain bloody fiyah down on them, and Moira.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  11. #491
    Militantly Indifferent Kisinith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Sphere View Post
    Man, this discussion is great. The more you guys broke it down the more it seems like Irene's comments to Raven are super manipulative. She can see Krakoa, she can see that mutants create it as a paradise, she can see that resurrection is central to it. She can see that its denizens will promise to bring her back, but will refuse to do so repeatedly. But she can't see that Moira (someone she could see multiple LIVES worth of futures) is responsible for its creation, and she could see those futures so clearly she could actually number what her final life would be. Is Krakoa's No-Place really that good of a place to hide? But there's a portal out of it to a major city on Earth. So unless Moira stays in there 100% of the time Destiny could see such a major actor.

    This message to Mystique is just meant to manipulate her into getting her resurrected immediately. She knows Raven's basically a frothing animal with little care for anything beyond herself, and IMO it's meant to impart to the viewer that Destiny is just a selfish and cruel monster who'll destroy things if she doesn't get what she wants.
    Honestly, I disagree with this too. Whatever else can be said about Destiny and Mystique they did genuinely care about each other (not so much that Destiny wouldn't manipulate Mystique though). I think that what you have in DoX is two master manipulators in Moira and Destiny. Both are playing chess but right now no one can see all the pieces, moves, strategies or endgames.

    The first step is to try and figure out what they want, what is their win condition. With Destiny she's had two appearances so far, In the first she murders Moira's fellow scientists, lectures her about her responsibility to her fellow mutants, charges her with making things better, threatens her across lifetimes and then horribly murders her to make the message stick. Her second appearance was the flashback with Mystique where she gives a cryptic oracle on Krakoa and tells her that if they don't bring her back to burn the place down. Those two appearance were both kick ass but the end-game and motivation between them is in conflict. If the goal was simple resurrection then the first appearance is way overblown, If resurrection is not the goal then her mission for Mystique cannot be taken at face value.

    Personal opinion is that Moira is manipulating Xavier, Magneto, Apocalypse and so on but that Destiny is manipulating Moira and that the actions in the 3rd life and with Mystique are designed to move Moira herself around the chess board.
    Last edited by Kisinith; 02-15-2020 at 04:02 PM.

  12. #492
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    I think Moira will be the big bad of this era. She knows this might be her last life and she’s concocted an elaborate plan to transcend this world. Krakoa and its inhabitants are a stepping stone to her immortality. Destiny is going to shut that shit down.

  13. #493
    Proud Krakoan Jbenito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Sphere View Post
    Man, this discussion is great. The more you guys broke it down the more it seems like Irene's comments to Raven are super manipulative. She can see Krakoa, she can see that mutants create it as a paradise, she can see that resurrection is central to it. She can see that its denizens will promise to bring her back, but will refuse to do so repeatedly. But she can't see that Moira (someone she could see multiple LIVES worth of futures) is responsible for its creation, and she could see those futures so clearly she could actually number what her final life would be. Is Krakoa's No-Place really that good of a place to hide? But there's a portal out of it to a major city on Earth. So unless Moira stays in there 100% of the time Destiny could see such a major actor.

    This message to Mystique is just meant to manipulate her into getting her resurrected immediately. She knows Raven's basically a frothing animal with little care for anything beyond herself, and IMO it's meant to impart to the viewer that Destiny is just a selfish and cruel monster who'll destroy things if she doesn't get what she wants.
    Interesting points considering, as said, we don't know yet if Destiny saw Moira.

    It's so exciting to see readers having fun theorizing.
    Boop! Krakoa forever!

  14. #494
    Militantly Indifferent Kisinith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegan Daddy View Post
    I think Moira will be the big bad of this era. She knows this might be her last life and she’s concocted an elaborate plan to transcend this world. Krakoa and its inhabitants are a stepping stone to her immortality. Destiny is going to shut that shit down.
    The problem with that idea is that if correct, Destiny could have foreseen that and shut it down simply by killing Moira as a child, something she threatened in their 3rd life confrontation. Also the carrot of the 11th life she dangled is in conflict with that idea. I think that you're gonna find that Destiny's manipulations are about short-circuiting the development of a hostile Homo novissima and will result in the death of Moira X, but in a way that circumvents universe rebooting side effects and Moira will be resurrected or reborn in this universe but not have her powers of resurrection any more.

  15. #495
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kisinith View Post
    The problem with that idea is that if correct, Destiny could have foreseen that and shut it down simply by killing Moira as a child, something she threatened in their 3rd life confrontation. Also the carrot of the 11th life she dangled is in conflict with that idea. I think that you're gonna find that Destiny's manipulations are about short-circuiting the development of a hostile Homo novissima and will result in the death of Moira X, but in a way that circumvents universe rebooting side effects and Moira will be resurrected or reborn in this universe but not have her powers of resurrection any more.
    That makes more sense but dammit I want megalomaniacal Moira

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