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  1. #496
    Cosmic Sandwich Metal Sphere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kisinith View Post
    Honestly, I disagree with this too. Whatever else can be said about Destiny and Mystique they did genuinely care about each other (not so much that Destiny wouldn't manipulate Mystique though). I think that what you have in DoX is two master manipulators in Moira and Destiny. Both are playing chess but right now no one can see all the pieces, moves, strategies or endgames.

    The first step is to try and figure out what they want, what is their win condition. With Destiny she's had two appearances so far, In the first she murders Moira's fellow scientists, lectures her about her responsibility to her fellow mutants, charges her with making things better, threatens her across lifetimes and then horribly murders her to make the message stick. Her second appearance was the flashback with Mystique where she gives a cryptic oracle on Krakoa and tells her that if they don't bring her back to burn the place down. Those two appearance were both kick ass but the end-game and motivation between them is in conflict. If the goal was simple resurrection then the first appearance is way overblown, If resurrection is not the goal then her mission for Mystique cannot be taken at face value.

    Personal opinion is that Moira is manipulating Xavier, Magneto, Apocalypse and so on but that Destiny is manipulating Moira and that the actions in the 3rd life and with Mystique are designed to move Moira herself around the chess board.
    Oh, I'm absolutely in agreement that there is a whole of manipulation going on here. But I can't discount that her goal is resurrection, not because I think it's her final goal, but it's a step towards it. Otherwise why try to manipulate Mystique into annihilating an apparent paradise for mutants? There is something more here.

    I do agree that Destiny and Moira are manipulating the actors in question by lying by omission. Both have unknown goals, and both are (IMO) thoroughly untrustworthy for different reasons. Is it possible Destiny intentionally left out mention of Moira to prevent Raven from being rash and blurting her name out or Xavier reading her mind and finding out she knows via Destiny? Moving a piece into place without even the chess player (or piece) knowing why the true reason for the move. I think her goal of resurrection is simply so she can be an actor on the board once again, something her adversary has over her.

    Edit: After posting this it just came to me: Moira flat out stated she has "acted too much" and will affect things to much, and has therefore stepped back. But that was directed at Xavier and Magneto, it could just be more lying so she could go off and do things without being suspected. If Moira has malevolent goals and doesn't want to be detected, she may seek out means or locations that hide her plans from even Krakoa.
    Last edited by Metal Sphere; 02-15-2020 at 04:33 PM.

  2. #497
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Destiny knows what it took to get them there and the importance of mutants having a safe haven to live...or she understands some of it at the very least.
    I don't think her instruction to Mystique was meant to be taken word for word literal. The use of the word "burn" is effective here because of what she did to Moira in HoX.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  3. #498
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    Destiny knows what it took to get them there and the importance of mutants having a safe haven to live...or she understands some of it at the very least.
    I don't think her instruction to Mystique was meant to be taken word for word literal. The use of the word "burn" is effective here because of what she did to Moira in HoX.
    Next issue we’ll see Mystique running around with a gas canister trying to start a forest fire.

  4. #499
    Cosmic Sandwich Metal Sphere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    Destiny knows what it took to get them there and the importance of mutants having a safe haven to live...or she understands some of it at the very least.
    I don't think her instruction to Mystique was meant to be taken word for word literal. The use of the word "burn" is effective here because of what she did to Moira in HoX.
    Oh no, I don't think Mystique is literally going to attempt the world's biggest arson. But yes, her choice of words here is eyebrow raising and another reason why I think she knows Moira is behind Krakoa but is neglecting to inform Mystique of that. It's probably something we, the readers, will find out about in Moira's book. But I have to keep reminding myself that Destiny isn't 100% accurate, and she's malicious and cruel as well. This is a woman that was committing crimes with Mystique long before the others were born.

  5. #500
    Fantastic Member Lapsus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegan Daddy View Post
    Next issue we’ll see Mystique running around with a gas canister trying to start a forest fire.
    Hahahaha knowing Mystique this could be possible.

    "Just as you said honey, Just as you said"

  6. #501
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Destiny could be/has been "malicious and cruel" that's absolutely true, but I don't think she's necessarily showing those colours there...I want to believe she's doing her best, given what she's seen and knows, to really do right by her mutant bretheren.

    I do think it's Moira we should be concerned about.

    Destiny tells Mystique..."they want us blind for some reason" They being Xavier and Erik but also most certainly, Moira
    Last edited by Devaishwarya; 02-15-2020 at 05:42 PM.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  7. #502
    Cosmic Sandwich Metal Sphere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    Destiny could be/has been "malicious and cruel" that's absolutely true, but I don't think she's necessarily showing those colours there...I want to believe she's doing her best, given what she's seen and knows, to really do right by her mutant bretheren.

    I do think it's Moira we should be concerned about.
    Nah, Destiny is a villain. An unapologetic one at that, so she doesn't earn any brownie points. It's just that Moira, since her revelation as a mutant, has been revealed as one of the most repulsive and manipulative characters the X-Men franchise has ever seen. She has lived over a thousand years worth of intensely negative life experience, and was even immolated in one. That's the dangerous thing, she's a radicalized unknown.

  8. #503
    Militantly Indifferent Kisinith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Sphere View Post
    Oh, I'm absolutely in agreement that there is a whole of manipulation going on here. But I can't discount that her goal is resurrection, not because I think it's her final goal, but it's a step towards it. Otherwise why try to manipulate Mystique into annihilating an apparent paradise for mutants? There is something more here.
    Because its the single strongest motivating factor for Mystique. We've already seen Destiny manipulate Mystique into action with a false hope of resurrecting her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Sphere View Post
    I do agree that Destiny and Moira are manipulating the actors in question by lying by omission. Both have unknown goals, and both are (IMO) thoroughly untrustworthy for different reasons. Is it possible Destiny intentionally left out mention of Moira to prevent Raven from being rash and blurting her name out or Xavier reading her mind and finding out she knows via Destiny? Moving a piece into place without even the chess player (or piece) knowing why the true reason for the move. I think her goal of resurrection is simply so she can be an actor on the board once again, something her adversary has over her.

    Edit: After posting this it just came to me: Moira flat out stated she has "acted too much" and will affect things to much, and has therefore stepped back. But that was directed at Xavier and Magneto, it could just be more lying so she could go off and do things without being suspected. If Moira has malevolent goals and doesn't want to be detected, she may seek out means or locations that hide her plans from even Krakoa.
    I'm not sure that their goals are unknown, unconfirmed yeah, but we've seen (broadly) Moira across many lifetimes her goal in each since the 3rd (when Destiny started her on this path) has been increasingly about protecting mutant-kind from the sentinels and later Homo Novissima. It really wouldn't make narrative sense to change her goal at this point.

    For Destiny, her whole career has been about preventing the worst and most terrifying of her visions from happening, by any means necessary.

  9. #504
    Fantastic Member Lapsus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kisinith View Post
    Because its the single strongest motivating factor for Mystique. We've already seen Destiny manipulate Mystique into action with a false hope of resurrecting her.



    I'm not sure that their goals are unknown, unconfirmed yeah, but we've seen (broadly) Moira across many lifetimes her goal in each since the 3rd (when Destiny started her on this path) has been increasingly about protecting mutant-kind from the sentinels and later Homo Novissima. It really wouldn't make narrative sense to change her goal at this point.

    For Destiny, her whole career has been about preventing the worst and most terrifying of her visions from happening, by any means necessary.
    Could it be that she is manipulating Mystique ?? That she really knows what blind them but because Moira doesnt want to resurrect her, she would rather make Krakoa fail ?

    Keeping from Mystique that this is good, that Krakoa have a chance.

    it would be pretty simplistic of course, basically no conspiration just an angry woman to which it is denied the paradise.

  10. #505
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lapsus View Post
    Could it be that she is manipulating Mystique ?? That she really knows what blind them but because Moira doesnt want to resurrect her, she would rather make Krakoa fail ?

    Keeping from Mystique that this is good, that Krakoa have a chance.

    it would be pretty simplistic of course, basically no conspiration just an angry woman to which it is denied the paradise.
    People keep banding around this idea and I'm like. "Why would any writer go for such a lame ass reason?" It's got no nuance. No long end game point. After instilling the idea that Destiny believes that no mutant's want's is greater than mutant kind's extended survival, for the conclusion to be "Fuck you, I want it too." is just super god damn lame

  11. #506
    Mighty Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woozie View Post
    People keep banding around this idea and I'm like. "Why would any writer go for such a lame ass reason?" It's got no nuance. No long end game point. After instilling the idea that Destiny believes that no mutant's want's is greater than mutant kind's extended survival, for the conclusion to be "Fuck you, I want it too." is just super god damn lame
    Agreed

    From what I remember Destiny lied to Mystique about the day she was going to die to help defeat Shadow king because she didnīt want Raven to stop her, my guess is that this isnīt just about her being ressurected, itīs enough for Mystique not for her, she wants to confront Moira in her own terms once again and she canīt do that if sheīs dead so here comes Raven to put enough pressure for her to be brought back and Xavier and Magneto already said so "We will keep saying tomorrow until we canīt anymore" besides "the X-men need to find out the truth just like we did".

    I agree with the posters who said Moira and Destiny may very well be lying by omission and have shown themselves more than willing to manipulate their loved ones to get them where they want them(Mystique and Charles), they are both a kind of oracle for mutants, Moira is an oracle for possibilities and Destiny for a possible future, whatīs difficult to know for sure is if they are both looking to help mutankind prosper or they just have their own goals but both things can also be true for both of them. I hope we find more about them because they are easily the backbone reason behind HoX and Krakoa.
    Last edited by Lucyinthesky; 02-15-2020 at 08:18 PM.
    "The time for subtlety is passing. Now is the time for change." [New Mutants (Vol. 1) #38]

  12. #507
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kisinith View Post
    I think people are are wrong to take everything she says at face value. Oracles in fiction rarely give clear unambiguous answers. I doubt Destiny saw an "either or" situation in the future. Rather, I think its far more likely that what she said was designed to provoke Mystique into a course of action.
    But what action?

    Really, I am interested in just how Mystique decides to burn things down. I doubt she's actually got a nuke under the island, but what else does she have?

    Just regrouping the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants seems too obvious.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegan Daddy View Post
    That makes more sense but dammit I want megalomaniacal Moira
    Don't we already have that? Isn't she already at that point?

    And while we all know that Marvel could do a hard reset with the universe, would they? This isn't just an X-Men story, but one which is already in other books. So if Moira dies and we get a reset, doesn't that effect all the other books?
    Last edited by Rosebunse; 02-15-2020 at 08:06 PM.

  13. #508
    Mighty Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosebunse View Post
    But what action?

    Really, I am interested in just how Mystique decides to burn things down. I doubt she's actually got a nuke under the island, but what else does she have?

    Just regrouping the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants seems too obvious.


    Don't we already have that? Isn't she already at that point?

    And while we all know that Marvel could do a hard reset with the universe, would they? This isn't just an X-Men story, but one which is already in other books. So if Moira dies and we get a reset, doesn't that effect all the other books?
    Secret Wars by Hickman was something like that, a soft reset for the entire marvel universe born from the FF4 and Black Panther and Avengers stoy but I donīt think we are quite here yet with the X-men, Krakoa seems to be just act 1 and act 2 is when conflict really comes into play.
    "The time for subtlety is passing. Now is the time for change." [New Mutants (Vol. 1) #38]

  14. #509
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kisinith View Post
    I think people are are wrong to take everything she says at face value. Oracles in fiction rarely give clear unambiguous answers. I doubt Destiny saw an "either or" situation in the future. Rather, I think its far more likely that what she said was designed to provoke Mystique into a course of action.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    Secret Wars by Hickman was something like that, a soft reset for the entire marvel universe born from the FF4 and Black Panther and Avengers stoy but I donīt think we are quite here yet with the X-men, Krakoa seems to be just act 1 and act 2 is when conflict really comes into play.
    Secret Wars worked because it was about how the multiverse could be saved. Just reseting things doesn't have the same epicness to it.

    I trust Hickman, and I know he's keeping the reset as a possible plan if things go bad, but I don't think it's Plan A.

  15. #510
    Mighty Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Hickman seems to like to link the work he does on each different title and this link may involve a reset but then again maybe not, it depends on the kind of story heīs telling and so far the story heīs doing on X-men doesnīt seem to call yet for a reset to me it looks like the beggining of a new Status quo for the X-men in the marvel universe but imo the story itīs still in itīs early stages to say for sure how it will end. Krakoa is here to stay for some time but who knows if it will stay the same way when the story heīs telling is done.

    Like Percy said on the Wolverine title, so far it looks like a nice place for logan to live but this doesnīt mean it will stay that way and it makes Logan fear for it and try to protect it because he has everything to lose now.
    Last edited by Lucyinthesky; 02-15-2020 at 08:43 PM.
    "The time for subtlety is passing. Now is the time for change." [New Mutants (Vol. 1) #38]

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