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  1. #106
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    It's just the superheroic standard hypocrisy of "We can't kill, it's wrong!" and then massacre aliens, vampires, robots with personality and magical beings like dark elves and frost giants without even blinking.
    That's a bit of an oversimplification considering those very same Vampires, Aliens, Dark Elves etc. are/can be lethal predators of the innocent.
    A hero may not want to kill them for morality reasons but may have no choice, for ethical reasons.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  2. #107
    Extraordinary Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perfection/Emma 2 View Post
    I really Excalibur changes out Gambit and Jubilee for someone else in the near future. Betsy, Rictor, Rogue, and Apocalypse works but the rest of the cast is bad
    At this point I think Jubilee’s inclusion was just to setup Shogo’s jettison. Turning him into a dragon has been the only significant change aside from the Cap Betsy and King Monarch status quo’s.

  3. #108
    Astonishing Member Glio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    That's a bit of an oversimplification considering those very same Vampires, Aliens, Dark Elves etc. are/can be lethal predators of the innocent.
    A hero may not want to kill them for morality reasons but may have no choice, for ethical reasons.
    "Lethal predators of the innocent" also describes people like Norman Osborn, Red Skull and Doctor Doom and many other people that the heroes refuse to kill.

    I mean, what makes it ok to kill a vampire but not okay to kill Bullseye.

  4. #109
    Proud Krakoan Jbenito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    That's a bit of an oversimplification considering those very same Vampires, Aliens, Dark Elves etc. are/can be lethal predators of the innocent.
    A hero may not want to kill them for morality reasons but may have no choice, for ethical reasons.
    Right. This "sweet" girl that Remy attempted to help was killed and skinned by the dreadful creature. It's not the type of thing to be tamed and trained.


    Boop! Krakoa forever!

  5. #110
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    "Lethal predators of the innocent" also describes people like Norman Osborn, Red Skull and Doctor Doom and many other people that the heroes refuse to kill.

    I mean, what makes it ok to kill a vampire but not okay to kill Bullseye.
    The same reason why Batman never gets to kill Joker..."for story reasons".

    Besides that obvious reasoning, Bullseye is human, a Vampyre or Dark Elf or Alien or Sentient Robot is not. Bullseye can and has been incapacitated and imprisoned...do tell, how would you incapacitate and imprison a Vampyre, a Dark Elf? (not that they can't be, but it is usually with greater difficulty than going up against a human foe).
    Last edited by Devaishwarya; 02-15-2020 at 11:23 AM.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  6. #111
    Astonishing Member Glio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    The same reason why Batman never gets to kill Joker..."for story reasons".

    Besides that obvious reasoning, Bullseye is human, a Vampyre or Dark Elf or Alien or Sentient Robot is not. Bullseye can and has been incapacitated and imprisoned...do tell, how would you incapacitate and imprison a Vampyre, a Dark Elf?
    You can put a vampire and a dark elf in a prison just like Bullseye.

    Make no mistake, I am in favor that sometimes heroes have justified killing. But there is an obvious hypocrisy of when they do it and when they don't. The average dark elf that invaded Earth in War of the Realms is no different from a human soldier, only more sadic.

  7. #112
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    You can put a vampire and a dark elf in a prison just like Bullseye.

    Make no mistake, I am in favor that sometimes heroes have justified killing. But there is an obvious hypocrisy of when they do it and when they don't. The average dark elf that invaded Earth in War of the Realms is no different from a human soldier, only more sadic.
    And by real world standards, what do we do to sadistic serial killers who've been judged and found guilty according to human law?
    And as I've mentioned human law...How would that apply to predatory Vampires and Aliens and Dark Elves once they've been held and placed before a jury?
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  8. #113
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    "Lethal predators of the innocent" also describes people like Norman Osborn, Red Skull and Doctor Doom and many other people that the heroes refuse to kill.

    I mean, what makes it ok to kill a vampire but not okay to kill Bullseye.
    It also describes Apocalypse ie the same mutant are assisting. In fact, X-men have a long history of accepting War Criminals and Psycho murderers into their fold.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  9. #114
    Incredible Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    It also describes Apocalypse ie the same mutant are assisting. In fact, X-men have a long history of accepting War Criminals and Psycho murderers into their fold.
    Its a big reason I never liked the X-men outside of solo series.

    Its definitely hypocritical that aliens/vampires/etc. get slaughtered while human enemies get punches pulled. It has to do with the level of the threat compared to how powerful the main characters are, too me at least.

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jbenito View Post
    Right. This "sweet" girl that Remy attempted to help was killed and skinned by the dreadful creature. It's not the type of thing to be tamed and trained.


    On one hand, yes.

    On the other, they were going to kill that thing regardless. They had kill orders before Cullen let the Warwolves out of their cage for hunting.



    Also I'm still not over Cullen just randomly being being evil now.

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woozie View Post
    On one hand, yes.
    On the other, they were going to kill that thing regardless. They had kill orders before Cullen let the Warwolves out of their cage for hunting.
    I wonder if that 'innocent girl' wasn't a terrible person in the first place, one of the rich jaded folk invited to the Bloodstone estate to hunt and kill sapient creatures for sport, with the help of demon trackers... It's not really clear if she was one of the hunters who got tagged by the warwolves she was hunting, or some random civilian who somehow wandered into the middle of the Bloodstone estates private hunting preserve.

    Also I'm still not over Cullen just randomly being being evil now.
    Seems like a waste of the character, but perhaps there's something deeper at work here.

  12. #117
    Incredible Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    Its really bizarre for Cullen to doing this, specifically, because he went through a massively traumatizing experience of Arena which is pretty close to being hunted for sport.

    I think the problem with Excalibur is that it feels like a collection of C-plots, and not a cohesive A or B plot to it.

  13. #118

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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    At this point I think Jubilee’s inclusion was just to setup Shogo’s jettison. Turning him into a dragon has been the only significant change aside from the Cap Betsy and King Monarch status quo’s.
    I'm not so sure Shogo's getting the boot. If Howard didn't want to bother with him, why not just have Jubes leave him with the older kids on Krakoa or something? It seems more like Shogo's dragon issues are Jubilee's hook into this story. Though I wouldn't be surprised if he gets aged up at some point; we've already touched on fey environments having odd effects on mortal children.

  14. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    That's a bit of an oversimplification considering those very same Vampires, Aliens, Dark Elves etc. are/can be lethal predators of the innocent.
    A hero may not want to kill them for morality reasons but may have no choice, for ethical reasons.
    When someone kills a vampire, it's usually while said vampire is feeding. Even Blade doesn't usually go after them if they're just minding their own business. In fact, there's a whole city of monsters right under NYC and now there's an offshoot of that on Staten Island.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jbenito View Post
    Right. This "sweet" girl that Remy attempted to help was killed and skinned by the dreadful creature. It's not the type of thing to be tamed and trained.


    Umm...where did the warewolf even get that girl? Didn't Cullen just buy them from the zoo? Did Cullen put some poor girl on his property just for them to catch and skin?

  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anduinel View Post
    I'm not so sure Shogo's getting the boot. If Howard didn't want to bother with him, why not just have Jubes leave him with the older kids on Krakoa or something? It seems more like Shogo's dragon issues are Jubilee's hook into this story. Though I wouldn't be surprised if he gets aged up at some point; we've already touched on fey environments having odd effects on mortal children.
    They may or may not be building toward his exit. I do think they may be working toward something built around the theme of belonging and where Shogo belongs. Compare Krakoa to Otherworld. In Krakoa, Shogo is just a non-mutant human child. The only one of his kind on the island. Otherworld, by contrast, turns Shogo into something that belongs there. Both of these contrast to most of the planet Earth where he could fit in reasonably easily if it weren't for the fact he were being raised by a mutant.

    I sure hope they don't get rid of him. I know all the arguments against him staying around. But one of the big themes with Jubilee always seemed to be "found family" and nothing really pushes that theme forward more explicitly than Jubilee being an adoptive mom.

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