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  1. #121
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    WoW Damian and Bruce doesn't work well when both of them are jerks. They brought out the worst of them and in a narrative manner two dark characters doesn't read that well one of them needs to be lighter, to get this kind of yin/yang effect. BatJerk looks worse wih JerkRobin both as a hero and father. I think the current Batman more than father is Damian's handler, he changed his alliance and his methods a bit but in the end I read current Damian more as batman's soldier than his son.
    Last edited by Dazai_Osamu; 02-13-2020 at 05:55 PM.

  2. #122
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    The problem is there really is no maturity in modern DC. DC wanted an escape hatch that they could always access so that no matter what any character could be in play whenever they want them to. Ergo they turn the concept of death into a joke and it's largely a meaningless concept in this world yet everyone sits together as if death is some kind of final destination. Even as Bruce sits in the room with two people who were both dead as door knobs at one point. You'd think everyone would just be getting together and researching the most effective way to ressurect Alfred but no its just a vehicle for cheap soap opera esque drama which has been the only real purpose of the so called Batfamily for years upon years now predating the N52.

    It's like kids trying to write stories for adults or something. It just feels like a joke or something, the writers want to reap emotional highs that they haven't even earned. The issue suppose to be about Alfred or something but it's just whinning about Bruce. Even the writers can't seem to take the concept of death seriously.

    -Undo Alfred's meaningless death and dissolve the "batfamily" because it's literally just a vehicle for drama.
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  3. #123
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    I'm just wondering... does EVERY Batman story have to be like "they need to be broken, completely destroyed and deserve it, so they can come back stronger... and then be broken again, totally demolished" It's like DC editorial wants all of the positives of having many Batman-related IPs but don't want to invest any narrative storytelling to tie the characters together in any organic way.

    Can we list how many times we've seen a version of this scene of the Bat family quitting on Bruce and each other, btw? I'll start but I know I'm missing some.

    —No Man's Land
    —Batman #700 (Murderer/Fugitive, the fight with Nightwing)
    —Nightwing Year One
    —War Games
    —Morrison's Inc ending
    —New 52, Death of the Family
    —Rebirth, The Fall and the Fallen
    —Rebirth, Tynion's arc
    Last edited by gregpersons; 02-13-2020 at 09:29 PM.

  4. #124
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    Huh, one time every 5 years or so?
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  5. #125
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    100% agree! The Batfamily is truly the worst and its books like these that make me wish for a separation between Batman and the Family. Bruce is always made out to be the bad guy, always gets the blame for any and everything. I want Bruce to wash his hands of the Family, just be done with them, at this point he's just their whipping boy. He dosen't need them and they do absolutely nothing for him. He would be much better off without them.
    I'm the absolute opposite and have wanted them to wash their hands of him since the early 2000s. I pretty much think he is the bad guy (at least with Damian and Tim and Dick - Jason's got some murderousness going on sometimes), and they'd be much better off without him. I am tired of the toxic way this family has been ever since at least when Dick's transition was rewritten for Batjertitude (and he was not good to young Jason there, either). Everything has to be drama all the time. And he'll lie to them and manipulate them and use them to further his mission. And they'll get peeved sometimes and tell him off, but they always come back in the end, and unfortuantely, all too often do so in the context of taking orders from him.

    Frankly, I find the entire dynamic with Alfred unhealthy, too. And while emotionally unhealthy families can be interesting, it really only works for me in a limited time frame. Two or three yeas to tell a certain story. At this point, it's way past tired and worn out for the Batclan.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 02-14-2020 at 11:51 AM.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by The World View Post
    The problem is there really is no maturity in modern DC. DC wanted an escape hatch that they could always access so that no matter what any character could be in play whenever they want them to. Ergo they turn the concept of death into a joke and it's largely a meaningless concept in this world yet everyone sits together as if death is some kind of final destination. Even as Bruce sits in the room with two people who were both dead as door knobs at one point. You'd think everyone would just be getting together and researching the most effective way to ressurect Alfred but no its just a vehicle for cheap soap opera esque drama which has been the only real purpose of the so called Batfamily for years upon years now predating the N52.

    It's like kids trying to write stories for adults or something. It just feels like a joke or something, the writers want to reap emotional highs that they haven't even earned. The issue suppose to be about Alfred or something but it's just whinning about Bruce. Even the writers can't seem to take the concept of death seriously.

    -Undo Alfred's meaningless death and dissolve the "batfamily" because it's literally just a vehicle for drama.
    I think this is really the problem. There's room for mature drama, not just immature breakdowns.
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  7. #127
    Fantastic Member Gotham citizen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The World View Post
    The problem is there really is no maturity in modern DC. DC wanted an escape hatch that they could always access so that no matter what any character could be in play whenever they want them to. Ergo they turn the concept of death into a joke and it's largely a meaningless concept in this world yet everyone sits together as if death is some kind of final destination. Even as Bruce sits in the room with two people who were both dead as door knobs at one point. You'd think everyone would just be getting together and researching the most effective way to ressurect Alfred but no its just a vehicle for cheap soap opera esque drama which has been the only real purpose of the so called Batfamily for years upon years now predating the N52.

    It's like kids trying to write stories for adults or something. It just feels like a joke or something, the writers want to reap emotional highs that they haven't even earned. The issue suppose to be about Alfred or something but it's just whinning about Bruce. Even the writers can't seem to take the concept of death seriously.

    -Undo Alfred's meaningless death and dissolve the "batfamily" because it's literally just a vehicle for drama.
    I wanted to write: «They are trying to write mature stories for immature readers, without understand their readers are more mature than them», but your example works better; I will put it in my signature.
    Anyway I have a different solution: hire better writers and better editors: the Bat-family is a concept too good to put it away (at least for me), so I think it is better fix it than throw it.
    Last edited by Gotham citizen; 02-14-2020 at 01:05 PM.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcady59 View Post
    That’s not true like at all, what do you think Lobedell wrote Bruce viciously beating Jason for Bruce’s benefit, no it was done for Jason and his story. Bruce has been written as terrible for the benefit of others for years now hell Rebirth is the epitome of this. In Batman it was for Selina and their relationship or the effectiveness of Thomas and Bane’s attacks on him, in red hood it was for Jason’s bat daddy angst which Jason needs to function as a character, in Detective it was done for the rest of the family giving us that stupid ass bat family drama so characters like steph and Barbara could stand up to the monstrous Batman. The only writers who didn’t write Bruce badly were Snyder, Tomasi, Priest and Robinson.
    Snyder and Priest aren't perfect either given the whole "Death of the Family" Thing with Snyder and Priest is known for reviving Black Panther and making him more Batman like than ever. So don't truly to lump them with good stories about Batman and his family.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cmbmool View Post
    Snyder and Priest aren't perfect either given the whole "Death of the Family" Thing with Snyder and Priest is known for reviving Black Panther and making him more Batman like than ever. So don't truly to lump them with good stories about Batman and his family.
    Except my post had nothing to do with good Batman and the family stories,it had to do with writers writing Bruce like shit to benefit other characters which did happen more than quite a bit in the last couple of years. In Rebirth Snyder and Priest are among the writers who did not do this and actually wrote him well, they both have there issues and not completely 100% with the handling of the Batman Character but it’s a million times better than what King,Tynion or Lobdell gave us.I would rather Bruce come off like he did in Death of the Family( which I did even fell was that bad) than have him come off as a child abuser or monster lie he does under those three.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dazai_Osamu View Post
    He was the savior of Bruce, it's his canonical origin story which was brought back by Tynion. But I agree with Jason a teen shouldn't have to become the emotional balance and brake of an adult like tiny Tim did it.



    Well Damian is a jerk and doesn't have a relationship with the others because he's always verbally abusive and sometimes he's physically abusive and there are reasons but these don't justification him, he's a jerk with Tim whom he tried to kill twice, and he's still verbally and physical abusive (now less) with him. They don't love each other, they don't like each other even if they are brothers now, I mean Tim lives with Bruce and both of his parents are dead and his original origin story is back so I think he was adopted but you don't have to love or be nice with an unbearable and abusive relative, and if TimÂ’s only Bruce's ward then there's even less reason to be nice and go after Damian. As current canon Jason was Bruce's ward and that sucks but Damian and him had fought a few times and they aren't nice with each other, but why should Jason help Damian? Damian said he was Leviathan and didn't have any proof, before that he went to attack Jason and accused him of trying to kill him and the Teen Titans and he also didn't have any proof, at that time Jason was mourning Roy and was a bit drunk Damian gave him a surprise attack and after that Jason beat Damian down so they have an antagonist relationship right now.

    Bruce is the one who had to go after Damian, he's his father and the jerk who caused this trauma and well it left me the impression the family didn't know Damian went to Gotham by Bruce's orders. Also it seemed Bruce hasn't talked with Damian to tell him he was wrong regarding Alfred he couldn't forsee what Alfred would do and Damian's mission was fated to failure and it wasn't his fault but his and Bane's.



    As gregpersons said he's changed,Tim has changed form his tiny, naive and idealist persona who worshiped Batman and Robin's as symbols but he knows better here and in a Lonely Place of Dying he was too stuborn but he got the support of Dick and Alfred.
    The family since the plan was to go in get captured giving him access to the cave to let the Family in. Dick and Jason didn't know.

    Damian's personality doesn't matter here. The family has a few jerks and are often antagonist but that's never stopped them sometimes risking their lives for each other.

    Damian blaming himself for Alfred and no one setting him straight is cruel. This issue did them a injustice. I don't believe the family would do that.

    I don't understand the need for such stories which just keeps pushing them as dark borderline bad people.

    Some things shouldn't be tossed into story just for drama/angst. This issue wasn't good.

  11. #131
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregpersons View Post
    I'm just wondering... does EVERY Batman story have to be like "they need to be broken, completely destroyed and deserve it, so they can come back stronger... and then be broken again, totally demolished" It's like DC editorial wants all of the positives of having many Batman-related IPs but don't want to invest any narrative storytelling to tie the characters together in any organic way.

    Can we list how many times we've seen a version of this scene of the Bat family quitting on Bruce and each other, btw? I'll start but I know I'm missing some.

    —No Man's Land
    —Batman #700 (Murderer/Fugitive, the fight with Nightwing)
    —Nightwing Year One
    —War Games
    —Morrison's Inc ending
    —New 52, Death of the Family
    —Rebirth, The Fall and the Fallen
    —Rebirth, Tynion's arc
    At least Inc was more Bruce just shutting down the program then everyone just outright leaving him.

    It kind of amazes me that, for all their issues, the family seemed closer and able to care about Bruce more during Murderer/Fugitive then they do now.

  12. #132
    Incredible Member regg215's Avatar
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    With the exception of Grayson the batfamily is the absolute worst. All of them constantly blame Bruce for absolutely everything. They are always acting so high and mighty, acting like they know what needs to be done better than he does and acting like they want nothing to do with him. Menwhile, they for the most part run around with using his resources and equipment he gave them, utilizing training he gave them, and operating with a ton more freedom in the DCU because they are associated with Batman

    I am just so tired of hearing about "batjerk". is bruce perfect? no, but chewing somebody out after their father figure was just killed, is just such a classy move for the high and mighty batfamily. If someone, in any of the batfamily's lives dies and Bruce isn't the perfect counselor for them, everybody gets on him for being "batjerk" yet babs and the family act like absolute jerks right after alfred dies and its "bruce had it coming".

    Knowing how Bruce lost his parents and that he just lost the only other person from his childhood they choose to do this and the reaction is " yeah bruce deserved that". I mean they act like Bruce doesn't know he messed up, throwing the vacation in his face- do they think he doesn't know that, of all of them who is the most analytical, who is the one most likely replaying everything and blaming themselves for everything, and yet here comes bruce's "family" to rub salt in the wound blame him for everything and remind him of mistakes at the wake of the 3rd parental figure that he has lost.

    I mean we even have barabara essentially blaming Bruce for what happened to gordon and having batmans from other worlds running around, so something happens to Jim Gordon and it's Bruce's fault now? Where the hell was barbara during all of that? I mean she is a freaking superhero who full well likes to act like she never makes mistakes yet her family is facing all kinds of danger and she is nowhere to be found. You don't see bruce throwing that back at her and asking her how she let that happen. Instead Bruce just takes that on too.

    Also barbara, if the batsymbol is so corrupted, why the hell are you still running around with it on your chest? if you want nothing to do with bruce how about you quit co-opting his symbol and start your own legacy rather than spending time criticizing Bruce. Also love her blaming him for not seeing things because of his privilege. Not sure the orphan who saw his parents murdered in front of him as a child, and has dedicated his life and fortune to fighting crime needs to be explained about "real world problems" there barbara. Does bruce have money? yes, but he is not exactly someone who is blind to the struggles of others. Calling out someone who has now seen 3 parental figures killed,for not understanding real life struggles is just plain stupid.

    The batfamily at this point is absolutely worthless and with the exception of Grayson, duke and cassie, they all should just get the hell out of Gotham and have nothing to do with Bruce, the bat symbol or anything else. To spend the wake of Alfred as an opportunity to trash Bruce shows how undeserving they are of any help from Bruce. Meanwhile Bruce just sits there and takes it, guy is absolutely defeated and the self righteous batfamily looks at it as the perfect opportunity to blame him for everything. Gotta love that is the way that they choose to show up for the guy who just lost the only tie to his childhood and has to process the mental baggage of fighting a version of his dead father. The only reason any of them really have anything is because of association with bruce but if they so desperately want nothing to do with bruce they should go wonder on in obscurity in their low selling books and just keep blaming bruce for all of their failures.
    Last edited by regg215; 02-15-2020 at 03:52 PM.
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  13. #133
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    The family since the plan was to go in get captured giving him access to the cave to let the Family in. Dick and Jason didn't know.

    Damian's personality doesn't matter here. The family has a few jerks and are often antagonist but that's never stopped them sometimes risking their lives for each other.

    Damian blaming himself for Alfred and no one setting him straight is cruel. This issue did them a injustice. I don't believe the family would do that.

    I don't understand the need for such stories which just keeps pushing them as dark borderline bad people.

    Some things shouldn't be tossed into story just for drama/angst. This issue wasn't good.
    Honestly if Jason knew, he'd blame Bruce and well Barbara and Damian don't have a relationship beyond co-workers, she remarked Bruce was the one who should go after Damian, he's his father and it was his plan.

    The issue wasn't good save Barbara's part where Alfred was presented as a supportive figure and not some kind of retired superspy. Ric was nice but he was so out of character, he’s normally a jerk with the family hence he was too nice here. Jason's memory was so plain and awful, they should have written something more personal and simple like Jason and Alfred cooking or how Alfred helped to adapt in Wayne Manor. Well Tomasi doesn't surprise me, his default mode to write Damian is to baby or woobify him, but Alfred never babied Damian, and at that point Damian wouldn't have accepted Alfred's gesture, he'd have hit him. They should have extended Damian's 13 years old birthday where Alfred made him a cake and tried to console him because he was alone that day due to Bruce was a jerk, Jason was being Jason, Tim was 'dead' and I don't remember what was Dick doing but he wasn't there.

    As always Tim's self-proclaimed fan Tynion failed to write Tim right, he had a lot of sweet moments to choose like when they played videogames and Alfred criticized them even if he enjoyed them, the times Alfred became Tim's de facto valet when Tim was sent to boarding school, the time when Alfred conviced Bruce to buy the business of Tim's girlfriend's relatives so Tim and her could stay together. But what we got was Alfred version mission impossible costume and Tim got the Rebirth Red Robin costume even though he was in his first months as Robin, I think that was an artist's mistake because Tynion brought back Tim's original origin story.

    It's ruthless but Damian's treatment isn't undeserving, Damian's personality and more important his actions caused all that, he burnt his bridges with Jason and Tim long time ago with his actions and their reactions killed any possibility of healthy and loving relationship between them. Their reactions towards Damian are natural, they don't like each other and there's too much bad blood to realistically work. What kind of brother relationship do they have? Damian's tried to kill Tim a few times and he's verbally abusive with him and Tim disliked him for that and others reasons which are too complex to explain here. Jason and him are in the worst moment of their relationship. Ric doesn't count but Dick and Jason have never been close before his death and after that it's worse. Jason also tried to kill Tim a few times and even if Lobdell's work made them 'brothers' after talking like twice, it's just bad writing and pairing the spares. Dick and Tim used to have a great brother relationship but since New 52 DC ruined it, after all Dick can only have one little brother relationship, this way Dick and Damian have a special bond and now Tim and Dick barely have a relationship, when Tim 'died' Dick only said Tim was a good guy with potential... They used to be brothers even before Tim was adopted. DC wasted the possibility of two different brother relationships. Granted they have saved each other when in mortal peril but they have also done it for strangers so it's what they do as heroes. Tim, Jason and Damian have a negative and violent relationship between them therefore going after him wouldn't make them good, it'd make them saints and it'd be out of character for Tim and Jason.
    Last edited by Dazai_Osamu; 02-15-2020 at 12:06 PM.

  14. #134
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    Tynion seems capable of writing only one thing : everybody in the "family" sits together and chews each other out and be total bitches and jerks to each other.
    Last edited by nhienphan2808; 02-16-2020 at 06:54 PM.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Maybe I'm just too tired of bad writing Bruce to accept an issue of character bashing.

    On-top of that...again, I don't think it had a place in this issue. It should be more celebratory or mournful then trying to tear someone down. Why is this always Tynion's go-to with the Batfamily?
    I'm totally with you on that

    It's been a long time since batman comics had the legendaryily capable batman

    Within kings work kings Bruce got sort of what he deserves, this is just dealing with the hand the creative were dealt

    But really that just reflects poor writing and characterization imo from king

    Especially of Bruce and dick
    Last edited by kilderkin; 02-20-2020 at 02:35 PM.

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