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  1. #136
    Fantastic Member Gotham citizen's Avatar
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    I think Pennyworth R.I.P. is a book that worth a penny; I know it is a bad joke, but it is a bad book so…

    In my humble opinion this book is wrong from various points of view: it is wrong from a logical point of view, because in a word where the Lazarus pits exist, the most logical thing to do would be put the Alfred's corpse in a fridge and start to search one of those pits (at least to me), it is wrong from a family point of view, because Alfred's daughter is absent (absent at her father's funeral!) and I don't want talk about the relationship among the various member of the "family" (is it still a family?), but if the things are in this way, it is only because in the last thirty years DC started to assassins its best character, making him more and more sociopath, uncaring and violent, destroying everything Batman was meant to be and in despite of the previous fifty years of his history.
    I hope this isn't another insult to the character, but the begin of his reconstruction, because I'm starting to be tired to read stories where Batman is exactly everything against which he says he fights; I fear not.

    P.S. Sorry for the rant; anyway the art is good.

    P.P.S. Both in Earth-1 than Earth-2 Bruce was raised by his uncle Philip, not by Alfred.
    Last edited by Gotham citizen; 02-20-2020 at 02:58 PM.

  2. #137
    Extraordinary Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gotham citizen View Post
    I think Pennyworth R.I.P. is a book that worth a penny; I know it is a bad joke, but it is a bad book so…

    In my humble opinion this book is wrong from various points of view: it is wrong from a logical point of view, because in a word where the Lazarus pits exist, the most logical thing to do would be put the Alfred's corpse in a fridge and start to search one of those pits (at least to me), it is wrong from a family point of view, because Alfred's daughter is absent (absent at her father's funeral!) and I don't want talk about the relationship among the various member of the "family" (is it still a family?), but if the things are in this way, it is only because in the last thirty years DC started to assassins its best character, making him more and more sociopath, uncaring and violent, destroying everything Batman was meant to be and in despite of the previous fifty years of his history.
    I hope this isn't another insult to the character, but the begin of his reconstruction, because I'm starting to be tired to read stories where Batman is exactly everything against which he says he fights; I fear not.

    P.S. Sorry for the rant; anyway the art is good.

    P.P.S. Anyway both in Earth-1 than Earth-2 Bruce was raised by his uncle Philip, not by Alfred.
    The problem with the Lazarus Pits, and is something that Jason can vouch for personally, is that they royally screw with the person's mind for a time after being bathed. How long? It varies. Though apparently, with multiple dips, the Pit doesn't have as strong of an effect (R'as al'Ghul and Talia). What's more...

    Before Flashpoint, the Lazarus Pits couldn't revive the dead, only rejuvenate the living. Jason, originally, was brought back by Superboy Prime's reality punch. But came out of his grave little more than a vegetable that could move. It took Talia tossing him into the Pit to make him a person again. And with Rebirth, its unclear which of the Lazarus Pits is now canonical.

  3. #138
    Fantastic Member Gotham citizen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    The problem with the Lazarus Pits, and is something that Jason can vouch for personally, is that they royally screw with the person's mind for a time after being bathed. How long? It varies. Though apparently, with multiple dips, the Pit doesn't have as strong of an effect (R'as al'Ghul and Talia). What's more...
    […]
    That is because I think it would be a good material for a story: do those pits exist or are legends, how much is dangerous search one of those pits, what would happen to the people resurrected with those pits? But maybe you are right.
    I thought they already cleared everything up about the new continuity.
    Last edited by Gotham citizen; 02-20-2020 at 03:52 PM.

  4. #139
    Mighty Member Chubistian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gotham citizen View Post
    That is because I think it would be a good material for a story: do those pits exist or are legends, how much is dangerous search one of those pits, what would happen to the people resurrected with those pits? But maybe you are right.
    Anyway after ten years since Flashpoint, they should have solved this thing of the Lazarus pits.
    As I understand it, there're pits that can resurrect people. In The Fall and The Fallen we have one that can do that in exchange for another life and in Robin Rises I think Damian and Talia were brought back to life but with the help of a pit that needed a crystal that was in Apokolips. So the pits that can resurrect aren't as common and easy to use as a regular Lazarus pit, which aren't particularly easy to use if you are not Ra's Al Ghul to begin with
    "The Batman is Gotham City. I will watch him. Study him. And when I know him and why he does not kill, I will know this city. And then Gotham will be MINE!"-BANE

    "We're monsters, buddy. Plain and simple. I don't dress it up with fancy names like mutant or post-human; men were born crueler than Apes and we were born crueler than men. It's just the natural order of things"-ULTIMATE SABRETOOTH

  5. #140
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    The problem with the Lazarus Pits, and is something that Jason can vouch for personally, is that they royally screw with the person's mind for a time after being bathed. How long? It varies. Though apparently, with multiple dips, the Pit doesn't have as strong of an effect (R'as al'Ghul and Talia). What's more...

    Before Flashpoint, the Lazarus Pits couldn't revive the dead, only rejuvenate the living. Jason, originally, was brought back by Superboy Prime's reality punch. But came out of his grave little more than a vegetable that could move. It took Talia tossing him into the Pit to make him a person again. And with Rebirth, its unclear which of the Lazarus Pits is now canonical.
    I have to point out, that this was still canon for New 52 thanks to Secret Origins #5 (2014). The thing that was changed was that Talia found him walking away from the graveyard, instead of being told several months or a year later by someone who recognised Jason in the streets. This is understable because of the compressed timeline of the Batfam and their history in the New 52; but still, with this piece of half-retconned story and the mild hints that we've got in Rebirth (and, at least in theory, both N52 and Rebirth are the came continuity), I think we can say that he wasn't brought back to the land of the living by the Pit either in the current continuity. If I'm not mistaken, the only one that still tells the story with Jason resurrected by a Lazarus Pit is the retelling of Under the Hood that Winick did for the animated movie. And Bombshells United, too.
    Last edited by Zaresh; 02-21-2020 at 05:00 AM.
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  6. #141
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    I think the should dip Al in the pit only to have him come back and kill Tim Drake . Establishing very clearly that the pit is not some get out of death free card they can play.

  7. #142
    Fantastic Member Gotham citizen's Avatar
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    I love your idea, but with a different ending: Tim shouldn't die: with Alfred's death we have already reached our ration of stupid deaths.

    I also think the pits shouldn't resurrect the deaths, they should create zombies! Just in order to clarify definitively that if someone die, he is dead; but this is only an opinion of mine.

  8. #143
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    We know why they use or don't use the pit. They use it when they don't have other methods of resurrection and they don't use it to prolong the drama. This is why death in comics is useless after the first time they're brought back to life.

    After the first returns, there should be no more deaths, because we know what will happen and even if they want to write us a good experience of loss and mourning, it will be forgotten with the next writer.

    I'm talking about how Batman went to space hell and back to revive Damian, and once he came back and switch to different writers, he neglects his birthday. As long as they keep writing like this, those losses and mourning experiences, no matter how good they're written, are useless.

    The main characters who experience death and losses multiple times in this magical world would be interesting if they're consistent about it.

    The good examples are how Tim and Jason handled it. When Bruce died, Tim said people don't die until we see a body, but sometimes not even then. After Jason came back, unload on his angst and moved on, he kept making jokes about crowbars and being a zombie.

    Bruce, the one who witnesses all these deaths and returns, should be utterly broken, based on how he handled his parents' death. Even if they come back, it doesn't erase what he felt when they first died. He would've gone insane if he doesn't have Batman's mental fortitude, and if he hasn't lost his mind, he shouldn't take any more sidekicks or lovers... unless that's his form of insanity. Repeating the same mistake over and over in the hope that something will go different this time.

    But these are not DC's intended interpretation, but something we adopt to justify these stories that are driven by money, not what makes sense.

  9. #144
    Extraordinary Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gotham citizen View Post
    I love your idea, but with a different ending: Tim shouldn't die: with Alfred's death we have already reached our ration of stupid deaths.

    I also think the pits shouldn't resurrect the deaths, they should create zombies! Just in order to clarify definitively that if someone die, he is dead; but this is only an opinion of mine.
    They should create dancing zombies!


  10. #145
    Fantastic Member Gotham citizen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    We know why they use or don't use the pit. They use it when they don't have other methods of resurrection and they don't use it to prolong the drama. This is why death in comics is useless after the first time they're brought back to life.

    After the first returns, there should be no more deaths, because we know what will happen and even if they want to write us a good experience of loss and mourning, it will be forgotten with the next writer.

    I'm talking about how Batman went to space hell and back to revive Damian, and once he came back and switch to different writers, he neglects his birthday. As long as they keep writing like this, those losses and mourning experiences, no matter how good they're written, are useless.

    The main characters who experience death and losses multiple times in this magical world would be interesting if they're consistent about it.

    The good examples are how Tim and Jason handled it. When Bruce died, Tim said people don't die until we see a body, but sometimes not even then. After Jason came back, unload on his angst and moved on, he kept making jokes about crowbars and being a zombie.

    Bruce, the one who witnesses all these deaths and returns, should be utterly broken, based on how he handled his parents' death. Even if they come back, it doesn't erase what he felt when they first died. He would've gone insane if he doesn't have Batman's mental fortitude, and if he hasn't lost his mind, he shouldn't take any more sidekicks or lovers... unless that's his form of insanity. Repeating the same mistake over and over in the hope that something will go different this time.

    But these are not DC's intended interpretation, but something we adopt to justify these stories that are driven by money, not what makes sense.
    Good post!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    They should create dancing zombies!
    I think you didn't understand what I have written and why: if the only use of the Lazarus pits were heal the body of a death, but instead to properly resurrect him they were able to create a man without self awareness, without will, only able to serve blindly the person responsible of their "resurrection" (usually Ra's al Ghoul), no one would be tempted to use the Lazarus pits to resurrect some character and so the dramatic force of the death of a character would be preserved. Maybe you have been misled by the cinematographic zombies, while I used the word in a way more close to the original meaning: in fact the real zombie is a person to whom a voodoo witch doctor stole the soul, transforming him in a slave without self awareness and will.

    Anyway I don't think the idea of a daughter who refuse to accept the death of her father and start to search a way to resurrect him, even if it is impossible or if it can be done only drawing up some sort of pact with the Devil (which is worst) and then she and the rest of the (no more) Bat-family had to deal with the consequences of this resurrection, would be a bad story; but this is only how I would have handle the Alfred's death, so never mind.
    Last edited by Gotham citizen; 02-21-2020 at 01:40 PM.

  11. #146
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    What if find really weak is that they didn't even used stuff that actually happend in the comics.

    Ok there isn't much to work with with the Jason and Barbara, but with the others?

    Especially Tim worked a lot with Alfred when Bruce was away or during his time in Brentwood, when Alfred left Bruce for Tim!

    If they really wanted to show how heroic Alfred he was, why not referencing when he died the first time in the silver age to safe Bruce and Dicks life.

    There is also some other stuff they could have shown, like him being a Medic, an Actor or a clumsy Hobby Detective.

  12. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    The problem with the Lazarus Pits, and is something that Jason can vouch for personally, is that they royally screw with the person's mind for a time after being bathed. How long? It varies. Though apparently, with multiple dips, the Pit doesn't have as strong of an effect (R'as al'Ghul and Talia). What's more...

    Before Flashpoint, the Lazarus Pits couldn't revive the dead, only rejuvenate the living. Jason, originally, was brought back by Superboy Prime's reality punch. But came out of his grave little more than a vegetable that could move. It took Talia tossing him into the Pit to make him a person again. And with Rebirth, its unclear which of the Lazarus Pits is now canonical.
    King has also introduced this "improved Lazarus Pit" (don't remember the name) in his run that Thomas wanted to use to bring Martha back.

  13. #148
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    Wouldnt put past them the tptb to make a modern alfred as the outsider story for this reality

  14. #149
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dazai_Osamu View Post

    It's ruthless but Damian's treatment isn't undeserving, Damian's personality and more important his actions caused all that, he burnt his bridges with Jason and Tim long time ago with his actions and their reactions killed any possibility of healthy and loving relationship between them. Their reactions towards Damian are natural, they don't like each other and there's too much bad blood to realistically work. What kind of brother relationship do they have? Damian's tried to kill Tim a few times and he's verbally abusive with him and Tim disliked him for that and others reasons which are too complex to explain here. Jason and him are in the worst moment of their relationship. Ric doesn't count but Dick and Jason have never been close before his death and after that it's worse. Jason also tried to kill Tim a few times and even if Lobdell's work made them 'brothers' after talking like twice, it's just bad writing and pairing the spares. Dick and Tim used to have a great brother relationship but since New 52 DC ruined it, after all Dick can only have one little brother relationship, this way Dick and Damian have a special bond and now Tim and Dick barely have a relationship, when Tim 'died' Dick only said Tim was a good guy with potential... They used to be brothers even before Tim was adopted. DC wasted the possibility of two different brother relationships. Granted they have saved each other when in mortal peril but they have also done it for strangers so it's what they do as heroes. Tim, Jason and Damian have a negative and violent relationship between them therefore going after him wouldn't make them good, it'd make them saints and it'd be out of character for Tim and Jason.
    So what you are saying is that you think Tim wouldn't correct Jason's error because Damian is the worst to him.
    You believe that Tim Drake would just let Jason go on believing that Damian was responsible for Alfred's death because Damian wouldn't listen?

    I don't think you know these characters very well at all.

    I never said that anyone aside from Bruce should go after him simply asked why no one told Jason what the plan was. Heck how come no one told him how Alfred Died?

    That's not being brotherly, saint's, heroes or doing something that requires effort or emotional investment. It's just being factual. How they relate or past experiences has nothing to do with being factual.

    This was Out of character and it still doesn't make it the right place for having this discussion.

    What a way to honour Alfred. They should have just shared good memories of Alfred and save the blaming and call outs for another time.

    They might not get on but they all work together and depend on each other to watch their back on the field.

    Negative and violent relationships hasn't stopped Tim and Jason from risking their lives to save Damian and it hasn't stopped Damian from Saving both Tim and Jason's life at the risk of his so Nope you are wrong.
    Last edited by dietrich; 03-07-2020 at 09:31 AM.

  15. #150
    Amazing Member E.Marie's Avatar
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    I wasn't fond of the portrayals in this book or another family argument that looks like it's going to be tied into an event. The only flashback I really liked was Barbara's, overall it didn't feel like a solid tribute to Alfred. Where was Julia?

    Barbara: Why is she blaming Ric and Jason for not being there? Neither of them came to the meeting where Tim was punched. They had no idea about the plan, and even if they did the plan was to send Damian in alone. If they were there they still wouldn't have stopped it.

    Ric: I don't follow how he acts in Nightwing but he seems a little too Dick Grayson like, at least in regards to Bruce and him. I don't know why Jason made his "part of the family" comment when Tynion wrote Jason having amnesia during his RHATO run. While they weren't close there were efforts to work on their relationship in the RHATO Annual. It didn't seem nearly as hostile as it's hinted at here.

    Tim: Just seems to be there to offer to help Bruce but otherwise doesn't react to anything else in a believable way. He only realizes there's problems in the family now? Even when Alfred was alive Bruce had estranged relationships with Damian and Jason. He was present when most of the family heard about Alfred so the narration about him being happy to be called to Gotham confused me.

    Jason: He was apparently present just to be the jerk even if his attitude doesn't make sense. Why would he call Tim a brown noser? Rile up Ric? Or blame Damian? Even if he thinks the latter is true I find it very hard to believe Jason Todd would blame a kid for a tragedy. Why was Jason told not to come to the ceremony? All of Gotham knows he's alive now and his absence only looks suspicious. Plus it seems to ignore Alfred's wish that they family all come together as a family.

    Damian: Who's keeping Jason in the loop? Because the fact he thinks Damian is to blame seems to indicate someone told him that. No one else corrects Damian when he says they all think that so maybe most of them do blame him? Damian felt off to me, which is weird because Tomasi was involved in this.

    Bruce: So he can track down the son he's mad at, calmly inform him that his best friend died, etc, but can't get up to let Damian know Alfred dying wasn't his fault?

    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    They might not get on but they all work together and depend on each other to watch their back on the field.

    Negative and violent relationships hasn't stopped Tim and Jason from risking their lives to save Damian and it hasn't stopped Damian from Saving both Tim and Jason's life at the risk of his so Nope you are wrong.
    Exactly. Under Tomasi they even put behind all their problems with Bruce to help bring Damian back.

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