Batman: Pennyworth R.I.P.

[dietrich]

I wasn't fond of the portrayals in this book or another family argument that looks like it's going to be tied into an event. The only flashback I really liked was Barbara's, overall it didn't feel like a solid tribute to Alfred. Where was Julia?

Barbara: Why is she blaming Ric and Jason for not being there? Neither of them came to the meeting where Tim was punched. They had no idea about the plan, and even if they did the plan was to send Damian in alone. If they were there they still wouldn't have stopped it.

Ric: I don't follow how he acts in Nightwing but he seems a little too Dick Grayson like, at least in regards to Bruce and him. I don't know why Jason made his "part of the family" comment when Tynion wrote Jason having amnesia during his RHATO run. While they weren't close there were efforts to work on their relationship in the RHATO Annual. It didn't seem nearly as hostile as it's hinted at here.

Tim: Just seems to be there to offer to help Bruce but otherwise doesn't react to anything else in a believable way. He only realizes there's problems in the family now? Even when Alfred was alive Bruce had estranged relationships with Damian and Jason. He was present when most of the family heard about Alfred so the narration about him being happy to be called to Gotham confused me.

Jason: He was apparently present just to be the jerk even if his attitude doesn't make sense. Why would he call Tim a brown noser? Rile up Ric? Or blame Damian? Even if he thinks the latter is true I find it very hard to believe Jason Todd would blame a kid for a tragedy. Why was Jason told not to come to the ceremony? All of Gotham knows he's alive now and his absence only looks suspicious. Plus it seems to ignore Alfred's wish that they family all come together as a family.

Damian: Who's keeping Jason in the loop? Because the fact he thinks Damian is to blame seems to indicate someone told him that. No one else corrects Damian when he says they all think that so maybe most of them do blame him? Damian felt off to me, which is weird because Tomasi was involved in this.

Bruce: So he can track down the son he's mad at, calmly inform him that his best friend died, etc, but can't get up to let Damian know Alfred dying wasn't his fault?



Exactly. Under Tomasi they even put behind all their problems with Bruce to help bring Damian back.

This was a **** show.
They were all out of character and the choice of story is baffling. I was expecting an issue dedicated to Alfred and focused on him. How or why the writer decided to turn this into calling out Bruce I have no idea.

The worst part is that this confrontation isn't going to be followed up on and nothing will change.

[Sergard]

Negative and violent relationships hasn't stopped Tim and Jason from risking their lives to save Damian and it hasn't stopped Damian from Saving both Tim and Jason's life at the risk of his so Nope you are wrong.

Excuse me. When?

[Frontier]

This was a **** show.
They were all out of character and the choice of story is baffling. I was expecting an issue dedicated to Alfred and focused on him. How or why the writer decided to turn this into calling out Bruce I have no idea.

The worst part is that this confrontation isn't going to be followed up on and nothing will change.

Well, Tynion's writing the main Batman book so I think there might be some follow-up in Joker War.

[dietrich]

Excuse me. When?

B&R Convergence.

[Jackalope89]

B&R Convergence.

Convergence doesn't really exist anymore, mainly since Superman Reborn (Jon being born during Convergence, but then Reborn made it so he was born in the current universe). Besides, it showed like, 2-3 different Dick Graysons, multiple Bruce Waynes, etc.

[Zaresh]

Convergence doesn't really exist anymore, mainly since Superman Reborn (Jon being born during Convergence, but then Reborn made it so he was born in the current universe). Besides, it showed like, 2-3 different Dick Graysons, multiple Bruce Waynes, etc.

Yeah, Convergence has been retconned. Jurgens and Tomasi's Superman gave Jon a new origin when he merged Superdads and the remains of Superbro's power in that story arc with Mxyzptlk as far as I recall (and I think I do. I liked that story. I liked that run overall: it was what one could describe as "comfy"). That being said, it's a pity, because what followed that short story with Convergence was a pretty nice read with nice art.

Maybe the new timeline/chronology/reboot/whatever brings back Convergence. Or what happened in Convergence. But it won't be the same exactly, is my guess. Same as we know that currently, something like DickBats or Under the Hood happened, but not quite the same way.

Or maybe I'm wrong "shrugs".

[Jackalope89]

Yeah, Convergence has been retconned. Jurgens and Tomasi's Superman gave Jon a new origin when he merged Superdads and the remains of Superbro's power in that story arc with Mxyzptlk as far as I recall (and I think I do. I liked that story. I liked that run overall: it was what one could describe as "comfy"). That being said, it's a pity, because what followed that short story with Convergence was a pretty nice read with nice art.

Maybe the new timeline/chronology/reboot/whatever brings back Convergence. Or what happened in Convergence. But it won't be the same exactly, is my bet. Same as we know that currently, something like DickBats or Under the Hood happened, but not quite the same way.

Or maybe I'm wrong "shrugs".

The only I know still has a good bit of their New52 history intact, is Jason Todd. As there are references to his friendships with Roy and Starfire, and in those, Under the Red Hood was mentioned as well.

Aside from him, its a complete crapshoot from what I can tell. Barring, of course, the Super Family being integrated into the main Earth of course, and Wonder Woman's New52 being an illusion of some sort.

[Zaresh]

The only I know still has a good bit of their New52 history intact, is Jason Todd. As there are references to his friendships with Roy and Starfire, and in those, Under the Red Hood was mentioned as well.

Aside from him, its a complete crapshoot from what I can tell. Barring, of course, the Super Family being integrated into the main Earth of course, and Wonder Woman's New52 being an illusion of some sort.

It was referenced with the heads in the bag and that, yep. But iirc, there are hints to the story being slightly different. I suspect that it happened similarly, but not straight the same. Sionis didn't seem like he had any bad blood with Jason, despite what happened back then. And I don't remember it clearly, but I think there was another hint in Death of the Family. And then when was Jason sent to Arkham? We don't know yet, but it was probably after his New 52 UtH hypothetical arc. Same as how we know that he came back in the coffin, but so far, we still know that it happened slightly different (Talia was there to find him just when he dig out, for example). There're probably some omissions that should've been referenced, too. Or Nightwing's whole previous story with Blud being retconned. So that part had to be different too (the ending probably was like in the movie. No manslaughtering batarang to the throat by Bruce's hand).

Perhaps Dark or Aahz can correct my bits or expand then. They usually have a more thorough knowledge about stuff like this.

In any case, yeah, it's great that we can track Jason's story and it's been kind of consistent for years now. What has happened matters to some degree, and that's great.

[dietrich]

I mean according to Doomsday Clock new 52 is a different world yet here we have the Owls still a thing and Damian still dying. Both on the new timeline.

Superman was the inspiration for LOSh but he also wasn't etc Continuity is a mess and Imma wait for the official timeline is debuted

[Sergard]

B&R Convergence.

Oh, okay. I thought you meant something from current continuity.

The only I know still has a good bit of their New52 history intact, is Jason Todd. As there are references to his friendships with Roy and Starfire, and in those, Under the Red Hood was mentioned as well.

Aside from him, its a complete crapshoot from what I can tell. Barring, of course, the Super Family being integrated into the main Earth of course, and Wonder Woman's New52 being an illusion of some sort.

I think both New52 and Rebirth mentioned that Roy and Starfire were Jason's first partners and therefore any story with Scarlet didn't happen in this continuity. (It was also mentioned in Rebirth that Pyg hadn't met Red Hood before.)
Which I'm totally fine with. I hated Morrison's redhead Jason, especially that Jason was character assassinated because writers wanted to push other members of the batfamily, in Morrison's case Dick and Damian - two of the three people that victim-blamed Jason the most. That's just insane. Just take a second and really think about it.

To this day I can't read anything with Dick as Batman or Dick and Damian bragging how awesome they were - it just reminds me that writers ruined Jason for them, Dick "The Golden Boy" Grayson and Damian "The Blood Son and True Heir" Wayne beating on Jason "Worst Robin turned Psychopath" Todd - and neither Jason nor his fanbase deserved that horrible treatment. No fanbase does.

[Aahz]

When it comes to Jason everything from Flashpoint untill the current issues seems still to be canon, with exception of his new 52 Origin, which was changed in Rebirth to something more similar to pre flashpoint, but with a lot of Details change, like his father being set up by Penguin and not by Two Face, and him being much longer with Ma Gun (and his father still being alive in prison at the time).

His pre Flashpoint Red Hood stuff seems mostly out, UTRH has of course still happend but inapparently with out Black mask being involved. Lost days seems to have been replaced by a training by Bronze Tiger, Shiva, Cheshire, and some other LoA members, and his Training by the All-Caste, and Count Down, BtfC and Morrisons Stuff has not been referenced sofar.

Scarlett has only been shown in a picture of Batman Inc. sofar, but I would claim that the creative team just didn't pay attention to what was and what was not continuity.

Btw. I think they should really do something like Secret files and Origin soon, and map out was is continuity and what is not.

[Zaresh]

A Secret files series could be nice. But the origin in Jason's case is pretty clear itself, unless they want to add or change something. They could add to his story him running with the circus when they stayed in Gotham for a month or two, giving him some nod to his first origin. Or making him life in the backstage and fly system of a theatre like in the Titan's show. And they could add the stuff they wrote out of continuity pre and post-crisis in his Robin formation and career, like the issue with Nocturna and Jason's custody by Bruce, and the story in the cult, that feel suitable for his more bizarre stories and background (we're talking about the revenant Robin who as for now has trained with some mystic assasins to fight monsters). You could also add Scarlet as some character in his time as Robin as well: an early victim of Pyg, before he was an actual serial perp with Dick's Batman. You don't need even to capture or fight him; just make Jason rescue her and then have Pyg leave and hide before Bruce can do anything. It could fit, too, given that in Jason's later time as Robin things like Bruce failing already happened. Or, hum, you could make her a collateral victim of Bruce benching Jason just before he goes to searching ofr her mother to fall in Joker's trap. That way you have her, but you don't need to throw in Pyg or fight him, because they don't have the time to investigate about him. That way, it makes noone mad if you use Pyg befor Dickbats, I thnk. Well, maybe. Dickbats is out of cont as if happened, but still something similar happened, and Jason attacked Tim at some point, more than once. So maybe once was before he startes as Red Hood and the other, when he run away from Dick when he was Batman. It's an idea. No need of use psychopath massmedia performer Jason at all; just the avedage Red Hood Jason. You could write an story that fills the holes and still retells waht happened.

I think Countdown is kind of in continuity, though. Wasn't in Inc where Bruce commented about it? It's pretty early in the New 52, but still in it. Or maybe I'm missremembering it.

But enough witb Jason.
How do we fix Alfred now? How do we bring him back in a year or two without cheap tricks, and still making Bruce someone not so depensant of him?

[Sergard]

[...]
How do we fix Alfred now? How do we bring him back in a year or two without cheap tricks, and still making Bruce someone not so dependent of him?

Easy. Bane killed a clone and imprisoned the real Alfred.
Bruce marries Selina and is now dependent on her instead of Alfred. Problem solved.

[Jackalope89]

Easy. Bane killed a clone and imprisoned the real Alfred.
Bruce marries Selina and is now dependent on her instead of Alfred. Problem solved.

Almost.
Alfred IS Bane!
And the dead guy was a Joker wannabe, infiltrating the Wayne family.

[bob.schoonover]

Easy. Bane killed a clone and imprisoned the real Alfred.
Bruce marries Selina and is now dependent on her instead of Alfred. Problem solved.

It was an actor hired to replace Alfred by Norman Osborn that was killed!