Dark Nights: Death Metal - Sequel to Metal is Announced

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Yeah, the continued talk that this is a WW story is starting to piss me off too. I mean, just don't patronize me. This is a Batman story of which she's doing a lot of stuff in. That's it.

Yeah, this is as much a Wonder Woman story as Snyder's Justice League was supposedly about Superman, even though nearly every single story came down to Batman.

At least this story has a sense of humor about itself, but the singular focus on Batman and Batman and Batman again is really what is holding Snyder back from making this a great DCU event, rather than yet another event in which the entirety of the DCU is Batman & Friends.

To be fair, Wonder Woman is getting treated better here than she did in Doomsday Clock, in which her appearance felt more like Johns suddenly realising that he forgot to give Diana anything to do while he was obsessing over Superman, in a story that still spent more time on Batman.

It might actually be a good idea for someone to force Snyder to do a Bechtel Test for any future DCU stories, but in regards to Batman. There needs to be at least one scene that isn't about Batman, talking about Batman, or waiting for Batman to do something.

[sifighter]

Actually I just realized I had two questions, both related, for that Valhalla Cemetery scene.

First, so I guess the Freedom Fighters are canon again instead of just an elseworld book, has this been seen before or did Snyder just throw in a Freedom Fighters reference?

Second, Uncle Sam is dead? I know there’s a plainly obvious joke about his death, but I thought he was actually a living spirit that people could summon and not an actual living person.

[Noodle]

Actually I just realized I had two questions, both related, for that Valhalla Cemetery scene.

First, so I guess the Freedom Fighters are canon again instead of just an elseworld book, has this been seen before or did Snyder just throw in a Freedom Fighters reference?

Second, Uncle Sam is dead? I know there’s a plainly obvious joke about his death, but I thought he was actually a living spirit that people could summon and not an actual living person.

He gets his strength through the American spirit and patriotism. That world map showed no America so he's essentially dead until people believe in America again

[Nite-Wing]

After all the Superman pedestal building and deification in Doomsday clock this is finally a return to form with a true crisis where everyone is featured
Even if the story is in a Batman tint because of the concept of the dark multiverse its a lot better than "Superman is the DCU" which is frankly disrespectful to all characters within it

Snyder making these huge crisis events dumb fun is DC finally catching up to Marvel

[sifighter]

He gets his strength through the American spirit and patriotism. That world map showed no America so he's essentially dead until people believe in America again

No I get that, and actually that makes a lot of sense, I just didn’t think you could raise the embodiment of American spirit and patriotism as a Black Lantern zombie....again there is another obvious joke there.

[Sacred Knight]

After all the Superman pedestal building and deification in Doomsday clock this is finally a return to form with a true crisis where everyone is featured
Even if the story is in a Batman tint because of the concept of the dark multiverse its a lot better than "Superman is the DCU" which is frankly disrespectful to all characters within it

Snyder making these huge crisis events dumb fun is DC finally catching up to Marvel

DDC's use of Superman was far more subtle than a bunch of overpowered Batmen running around. Hell he was barely in it till the end. This isn't a Batman tint, its a giant Batman glob. I wasn't DDC's biggest fan outright either, but its explanation for how the multiverse divided being based on Superman was not at all disrespectful. Its not like he ruled any of those Earths, its just in the way they partitioned off that had to do with him. Its way more a meta statement than anything that will get any practical use. A multiverse centered around Batman though? That literally is used; that's all the Dark Multiverse is. So I mean, if what Johns did there is disrespectful, I don't see how what Snyder is doing is any better when its many times over more overt and tangible.

[Gaius]

Yeah, the continued talk that this is a WW story is starting to piss me off too. I mean, just don't patronize me. This is a Batman story of which she's doing a lot of stuff in. That's it.

And I 100% agree that Snyder should not be steering the larger ship. He's too singularly focused for that. Say what one will about Geoff Johns, and lord knows I have, he loves the larger playground and the multiple areas of focus that is required with large scale mapping like this. Snyder still looks at it all through a Batman lens. You need someone who can see the forest for the trees if you're going to have someone in charge of something shaping the future of the whole smash like this.

Yeah, if this story was based around some threat from WW's corner of the universe or something tied specifically to her than maybe I could buy it her as story but this just kind of feels DC told Snyder "WW '84 will be in theaters when this is out, give WW a bigger role".

Right now just feels like it's just giving more ideas for DC's toy companies to make more Batman figures out of.

[Nite-Wing]

DDC's use of Superman was far more subtle than a bunch of overpowered Batmen running around. Hell he was barely in it till the end. This isn't a Batman tint, its a giant Batman glob. I wasn't DDC's biggest fan outright either, but its explanation for how the multiverse divided being based on Superman was not at all disrespectful. Its not like he ruled any of those Earths, its just in the way they partitioned off that had to do with him. Its way more a meta statement than anything that will get any practical use. A multiverse centered around Batman though? That literally is used; that's all the Dark Multiverse is. So I mean, if what Johns did there is disrespectful, I don't see how what Snyder is doing is any better when its many times over more overt and tangible.

Sorry sour grapes
I just find the idea disrespectful because as much as Batman is featured in Snyder's work and as popular as he is you'll never see any writer write something like Doomsday Clock and literally say the entire universe hinges on developments in his life and history.
No villain to say Bruce is more important than any other character
No heroes to claim they only exist because of him.
No threat to change the entire universe to fix one character

In hindsight a lot of the characters only debuted a few years after superman mind you. many of them have jack to do with him and its funny that so many of them have their significance crafted onto him when they don't resemble him at all.
Now you have a story with literal Batman versions of everything but the only difference is its a gimmick made for dumb fun and not being used to put superfluous importance on the status of one character

[Robanker]

Sorry sour grapes
I just find the idea disrespectful because as much as Batman is featured in Snyder's work and as popular as he is you'll never see any writer write something like Doomsday Clock and literally say the entire universe hinges on developments in his life and history.
No villain to say Bruce is more important than any other character
No heroes to claim they only exist because of him.
No threat to change the entire universe to fix one character

In hindsight a lot of the characters only debuted a few years after superman mind you. many of them have jack to do with him and its funny that so many of them have their significance crafted onto him when they don't resemble him at all.
Now you have a story with literal Batman versions of everything but the only difference is its a gimmick made for dumb fun and not being used to put superfluous importance on the status of one character

Snyder himself had the World Forger reveal the DCU is literally about Batman and Superman and their eternal conflict for who is top dog. Read his Sixth Dimension arc. He stated it as plain text: you two are the most important characters. So much so we gave each of you a fifth dimensional cheerleader.


You got this one wrong. Snyder is as guilty as anyone else. Johns was being a bit more meta in that the entire genre was born from Superman, he's what everyone thinks of when we say "superhero" and the terminology/iconography of the genre is all based on him; he's the bar others measure against, for good or ill. Yes, it was heavy-handed, but it's not without reason; we only have this genre (and yes, Batman) because of Superman. He's the horse from Animal Farm these days anyway. DC broke his back and now they just drag him through the mud to prop others up. For every Doomsday Clock, we get a handful of events where Batman is shown to be the most powerful, competent character in the roster to the detriment of everyone around him.

With Snyder it's more "you guys are on the most underwear and I don't want to talk about Diana unless I can surround her with Batmen."

It's shilling both ways, but from the beginning Johns admitted Superman is the story. Snyder's been saying for years that this isn't about Batman anymore. He's not capable of being that self aware, I guess.

Moreover, it's not just dumb fun when it undermines your core staple of characters. They spent 40 issues of building up Lex and his Legion of Doom just for the Batman Who Laughs to show up, punk him in a short cashgrab mini and then toss Lex out. Lex Luthor, one of their premier villains and canonical smartest man on the planet. In just one issue, that same character then undermined everything that happened to Wally by transplanting himself into Doc Manhattan.

If you want to just read into it like it's a joke, fine, but it does show how little anyone without pointed ears registers at DC Comics. Even jokes surpass their biggest non-Bats. Hell, they're letting a Diana get one punched and Clark's body get desecrated and turned into a flail because S H O C K I N G.

Hell, every evil Batman is essentially a statement to all of DC about how Bruce can do everything the others can do if given the chance. It's like how Superman spends his entire life fighting Lex with green K and red sun radiation but he completely forgets everything when Bruce has to use it.

Death Metal may very well be a big dumb joke, but at the end of the day, it's also the foundation for the next status quo. I'd rather that be built on something a bit more even-handed and less, well, flimsy.

[Vordan]

Sorry sour grapes
I just find the idea disrespectful because as much as Batman is featured in Snyder's work and as popular as he is you'll never see any writer write something like Doomsday Clock and literally say the entire universe hinges on developments in his life and history.
No villain to say Bruce is more important than any other character
No heroes to claim they only exist because of him.
No threat to change the entire universe to fix one character

Technically though that’s exactly what the Dark Multiverse has been used for so far. Entire universes built around Batman’s fears, hopes, and choices. It’s frustrating because I like the Dark Multiverse and I like the evil Batmen, but this is supposedly a WW event. Where’s the Dark Multiverse Wonder Women? Why don’t we get to explore Diana’s hopes and fears? Where’s her Rogues, where’s Circe, she was a major player in JLD? It’s a Batman event that has WW as the POV character, no matter what Snyder says.

And of course as Robanker pointed out, the Sixth Dimension made it canon that the Multiverse exists in a tug of war between Batman and Superman who are basically the main characters of all existence. Plus Metal basically was exactly what you’re complaining about DDC. Barbatos was obsessed with Batman, the Dark Multiverse invasion happened solely because of events that occurred over Bruce’s career and he’s the sole reason it occurred, he’s the one who stopped the invasion with the others barely doing anything, etc. And I was fine with that! Events aren’t always fair, some characters are going to be more important than others.

In hindsight a lot of the characters only debuted a few years after superman mind you. many of them have jack to do with him and its funny that so many of them have their significance crafted onto him when they don't resemble him at all.
Now you have a story with literal Batman versions of everything but the only difference is its a gimmick made for dumb fun and not being used to put superfluous importance on the status of one character

While I think DDC dropped the ball in many ways, the whole Metaverse was just acknowledging that so many of the reboots have to do with Supes. Post Crisis and New 52 changed him up dramatically in contrast to the minor changes of the Batfamily and GL. It’s a clumsy attempt to acknowledge his real world status as the first superhero, and de facto founder of the DCU I agree. But DDC hasn’t really mattered, unlike Metal and Death Metal which have shaped and will shape the entire line going forward.

[manwhohaseverything]

I think I'm probably out after this one. It's clear to be more Batman glorification at the expense of everything else around them. They couldn't even let Wally be special again. He had to get one-upped by Batman because of course. The sooner Snyder gets his hands off the steering wheel of the DCU, the better we'll be.

I can't just look at it as dumb fun because, ultimately, it's going to shape the direction DC takes. I hope they turn it around, but as it is, I'm not buying issue #3 even for the art.

@bold This is my biggest complaint. What is with all the batman who sucks nonsense?

Sorry sour grapes
I just find the idea disrespectful because as much as Batman is featured in Snyder's work and as popular as he is you'll never see any writer write something like Doomsday Clock and literally say the entire universe hinges on developments in his life and history.
No villain to say Bruce is more important than any other character
No heroes to claim they only exist because of him.
No threat to change the entire universe to fix one character

In hindsight a lot of the characters only debuted a few years after superman mind you. many of them have jack to do with him and its funny that so many of them have their significance crafted onto him when they don't resemble him at all.
Now you have a story with literal Batman versions of everything but the only difference is its a gimmick made for dumb fun and not being used to put superfluous importance on the status of one character

They don't need propaganda to propup batman. They do it by prioritising him and his characters more. Batman is untouchable. Superman on the other hand is proped up with propaganda and essays when these guys actually remember the guy is one of the reason the genre exists. Also, batman exists because of superman(don't know about other characters) . The whole thing about actually working on superman ip and building him up as character/world with great stories that's attractive to readers. They rarely do in main continuity. Superman currently is defined in dc as "what batman isn't". Which sucks for the character. Especially, when batman can do everything.Their mentality is that, Superman is supposed to be lame and batman is supposed to exciting. Heck! They unabashedly even put it on paper . People don't want fake importance being given to the character. But, good stories with the character.And i mean stories, not essays. If this is how these guys view and approach the character then how is the character ever going to actually stand a chance

[Nite-Wing]

Snyder himself had the World Forger reveal the DCU is literally about Batman and Superman and their eternal conflict for who is top dog. Read his Sixth Dimension arc. He stated it as plain text: you two are the most important characters. So much so we gave each of you a fifth dimensional cheerleader.


You got this one wrong. Snyder is as guilty as anyone else. Johns was being a bit more meta in that the entire genre was born from Superman, he's what everyone thinks of when we say "superhero" and the terminology/iconography of the genre is all based on him; he's the bar others measure against, for good or ill. Yes, it was heavy-handed, but it's not without reason; we only have this genre (and yes, Batman) because of Superman. He's the horse from Animal Farm these days anyway. DC broke his back and now they just drag him through the mud to prop others up. For every Doomsday Clock, we get a handful of events where Batman is shown to be the most powerful, competent character in the roster to the detriment of everyone around him.

With Snyder it's more "you guys are on the most underwear and I don't want to talk about Diana unless I can surround her with Batmen."

It's shilling both ways, but from the beginning Johns admitted Superman is the story. Snyder's been saying for years that this isn't about Batman anymore. He's not capable of being that self aware, I guess.

Moreover, it's not just dumb fun when it undermines your core staple of characters. They spent 40 issues of building up Lex and his Legion of Doom just for the Batman Who Laughs to show up, punk him in a short cashgrab mini and then toss Lex out. Lex Luthor, one of their premier villains and canonical smartest man on the planet. In just one issue, that same character then undermined everything that happened to Wally by transplanting himself into Doc Manhattan.

If you want to just read into it like it's a joke, fine, but it does show how little anyone without pointed ears registers at DC Comics. Even jokes surpass their biggest non-Bats. Hell, they're letting a Diana get one punched and Clark's body get desecrated and turned into a flail because S H O C K I N G.

Hell, every evil Batman is essentially a statement to all of DC about how Bruce can do everything the others can do if given the chance. It's like how Superman spends his entire life fighting Lex with green K and red sun radiation but he completely forgets everything when Bruce has to use it.

Death Metal may very well be a big dumb joke, but at the end of the day, it's also the foundation for the next status quo. I'd rather that be built on something a bit more even-handed and less, well, flimsy.

I just can't get behind the idea that the entire universe will be derailed if Superman isn't wearing his trunks or he doesn't have his parents in his life.
Johns, and many other writers infatuated with big blue want to place significance on something like that to every other characters detriment. That's a lot worse than anything Batman has been up to in his entire history. Invalidating a characters entire existence or you know getting punched by Batman
Its so funny how Batman has been a character just as long as Superman but doesn't need any of that to continue to resonate. No undue praise heaped up his character for existing

DC comics was started before Superman was created not the other way around

The first use of the word Superhero predates Superman by a good 20 or so years and many characters created before him a la Doc Savage or even mythological characters like Hercules could be said to have the same influence on the genre


DC has a problem and in many ways its born out of the nostalgia mining, puffed up significance being crafted onto the age of these characters. The further back a character debuts does not mean they are more important. That's an idea that is stiffing DC and keeping them from introducing new heroes

Snyder in many ways respects the history and what's been published before him but he is also moving forward with new ideas. The last time we almost had a crisis with a new villain and propped up by new characters was too long ago
Perpetua
The Empty Hands
Batman who Laughs
his gimmick of the knightmare dark multiverse
all new ideas

If someone ever wrote something like Thomas or Martha Wayne being literal jenga pieces that if removed the entire universe will collapse we have a problem. Silly fun with is what comics are supposed to be not meta fictional circumstance to rewrite history
I mean DC just had to make WW their first hero again but then we fall right back into the practice of Superman worship =/

[sifighter]

Personally I disagree that this is a Batman event mainly because my definition of a Batman event is a big storyline or event that focuses solely on Batman, a good example being Joker War. It would be a big story where besides other Batfamily characters, no one besides Batman shows up even though they probably should.

I mean yes, the main villains are evil Batmen, but I don’t see them as Batman just ideas they thought would be cool dressed as Batman. Look at heroes we have been following the most so far, they have been Wonder Woman, Swamp Thing, and Wally West with characters like the JSA and Jonah Hex showing up to the party as well. Heck the main plot revolves around past Crisis events and using Doctor Manhattan powers to fix the universe. For me it’s not a Batman event, it’s a dc universe event though feel free to disagree with me.

[Dred]

I just can't get behind the idea that the entire universe will be derailed if Superman isn't wearing his trunks or he doesn't have his parents in his life.
Johns, and many other writers infatuated with big blue want to place significance on something like that to every other characters detriment. That's a lot worse than anything Batman has been up to in his entire history. Invalidating a characters entire existence or you know getting punched by Batman
Its so funny how Batman has been a character just as long as Superman but doesn't need any of that to continue to resonate. No undue praise heaped up his character for existing

I can't believe you're saying this with a straight face. The entire universe lays down to invalidate itself before Batman and has done so for 30 years.

Personally I disagree that this is a Batman event mainly because my definition of a Batman event is a big storyline or event that focuses solely on Batman, a good example being Joker War. It would be a big story where besides other Batfamily characters, no one besides Batman shows up even though they probably should.

I mean yes, the main villains are evil Batmen, but I don’t see them as Batman just ideas they thought would be cool dressed as Batman. Look at heroes we have been following the most so far, they have been Wonder Woman, Swamp Thing, and Wally West with characters like the JSA and Jonah Hex showing up to the party as well. Heck the main plot revolves around past Crisis events and using Doctor Manhattan powers to fix the universe. For me it’s not a Batman event, it’s a dc universe event though feel free to disagree with me.

The main plot that was done off screen? That main plot?

The most important character in this story literally has Batman in his name and is just Evil Bruce Wayne. He has been singularly more important than everything else combined for the last two years in Snyder's story. That all the background and setting is also based on Batman IS significantly bending over to the Batwank as well. It's literally a horde of vindication to the idea that Batman is better than everyone else at everything across the multiverse if he "wanted" to.

Death Metal is ahead of The Flash, yes. spoilers:

I'm guessing Wally doesn't factor into Finish Line. We saw seven speedsters on the covers - Barry, Jay, Wallace, Avery, Max Mercury, Jesse Quick and Impulse. So while DM is the first time Jay and Wally reunite, it's not the first reunion of Jay and Barry.

end of spoilers

Williamson has confirmed that Wally will appear in Finish Line in some form. It might be completely distinct from all this Death Metal stuff. In the same way whatever's up with Barry and Jay in Death Metal has no bearing on it.

[sifighter]

The main plot that was done off screen? That main plot?

The most important character in this story literally has Batman in his name and is just Evil Bruce Wayne. He has been singularly more important than everything else combined for the last two years in Snyder's story. That all the background and setting is also based on Batman IS significantly bending over to the Batwank as well. It's literally a horde of vindication to the idea that Batman is better than everyone else at everything across the multiverse if he "wanted" to.

Wait do you mean the Perpetua fight they can’t remember or are you referring to them talking about their plan to get to New Apokolips and then they go get the trinity rocket? Because the rocket thing was on panel. Not trying to argue just wanted to know what we meant so that we can clearly understand each other