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  1. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by sifighter View Post
    Wait do you mean the Perpetua fight they can’t remember or are you referring to them talking about their plan to get to New Apokolips and then they go get the trinity rocket? Because the rocket thing was on panel. Not trying to argue just wanted to know what we meant so that we can clearly understand each other
    Wally West and his Doctor Manhattan powers trying to fix the universe got beat and captured by BWL offscreen. That entire plot line was stamped on and discarded to lead into Batman Who Laughs getting the manhattan powers.

  2. #257
    Astonishing Member sifighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    Wally West and his Doctor Manhattan powers trying to fix the universe got beat and captured by BWL offscreen. That entire plot line was stamped on and discarded to lead into Batman Who Laughs getting the manhattan powers.
    Oh yeah that was done off screen. Although personally this is a wait and see for me because it feels like what happened before with Justice League and Wally being defeated is supposed to be some big mystery, although again it all remains to be seen on how it plays out.
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  3. #258
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Oh goodie, I hope all the godly characters fight for supremacy and blow up to make way for a whole new clean universe and timeline, although knowing Snyder, he's already preparing for an even higher being or expansive multiverse once this is over, but at least they'll be retired for... a few months until he gets the next idea.

    By the way, I'm not reading this, I'm just paying attention enough because this seems to be The Biggest event in DC right now and confirmed with what happened to Wally.

    So this is what they're doing after the Generations series are canceled.

  4. #259
    Astonishing Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    I just can't get behind the idea that the entire universe will be derailed if Superman isn't wearing his trunks or he doesn't have his parents in his life.
    Johns, and many other writers infatuated with big blue want to place significance on something like that to every other characters detriment. That's a lot worse than anything Batman has been up to in his entire history. Invalidating a characters entire existence or you know getting punched by Batman
    Its so funny how Batman has been a character just as long as Superman but doesn't need any of that to continue to resonate. No undue praise heaped up his character for existing

    DC comics was started before Superman was created not the other way around

    The first use of the word Superhero predates Superman by a good 20 or so years and many characters created before him a la Doc Savage or even mythological characters like Hercules could be said to have the same influence on the genre


    DC has a problem and in many ways its born out of the nostalgia mining, puffed up significance being crafted onto the age of these characters. The further back a character debuts does not mean they are more important. That's an idea that is stiffing DC and keeping them from introducing new heroes

    Snyder in many ways respects the history and what's been published before him but he is also moving forward with new ideas. The last time we almost had a crisis with a new villain and propped up by new characters was too long ago
    Perpetua
    The Empty Hands
    Batman who Laughs
    his gimmick of the knightmare dark multiverse
    all new ideas

    If someone ever wrote something like Thomas or Martha Wayne being literal jenga pieces that if removed the entire universe will collapse we have a problem. Silly fun with is what comics are supposed to be not meta fictional circumstance to rewrite history
    I mean DC just had to make WW their first hero again but then we fall right back into the practice of Superman worship =/
    It's hard to take your comments seriously when you are dancing around just how hard they still Batman. He got to be the one surviving member of the Justice League during Forever Evil. During New 52 JL Dark, the titular team were so relieved that Batman specifically was spared over the rest. They let the Batman book derail several books, like Nightwing and Batgirl, without inviting their writers to meetings because they literally don't matter. Ben Percy left the company over it. They shot his plans in the head. Metal was basically "Batman is the lynchpin of the multiverse and can do the JLA all by himself if given the chance."

    That's just a few examples of many, but Superman gets one story and you're calling foul.

    Yes, there's some respect for him at DC. The entire genre (and their company) exploded when he appeared. He effectively was DC Comics for nearly 60 years. He revolutionized comics. He actually is a very important IP, no matter what they want to say about when he started his superhero career in continuity.

    Kind of like how they insist Batman is only a man but regularly shits on gods and aliens without ever sleeping and can stab anyone in the back a billion times but they'll always trust him.

    Give me a break, man. DC shills Batman harder than anything. Look at this Wonder Woman event we're in the middle of. All she's done is high five a few people and inadvertently empowered their current Batman flavor of the month, THWL. Hell, they let Batman use the Black Ring without being dead currently or beforehand because screw the universe and rules established, we want him to be cool. Ugh.

    Snyder don't respect squat or he wouldn't just take a massive dump on so many characters just to constantly Stan Batman so hard. All his work at DC needs to remind you about how much you'd rather be reading Batman. He had his Bruce take on the entire Justice League and win. Then he had them effectively lost against Bruce Wayne copies of themselves. He had geriatric Batman beat three Dark Supermen in one panel because he keeps the kryptonite infinity gauntlet in his ass at all times apparently, but seven dark Batmen rocked the universe for seven oversized issues. Now just one of them is being acknowledged by Perpetua ( who herself invalidates every cosmic figure at DC) as able to fell her himself. Snyder respects his own ideas and bully for you if they match with yours, but too bad if they don't.
    Last edited by Robanker; 07-15-2020 at 07:06 AM.

  5. #260
    Extraordinary Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    I just can't get behind the idea that the entire universe will be derailed if Superman isn't wearing his trunks or he doesn't have his parents in his life.
    Johns, and many other writers infatuated with big blue want to place significance on something like that to every other characters detriment. That's a lot worse than anything Batman has been up to in his entire history. Invalidating a characters entire existence or you know getting punched by Batman
    Its so funny how Batman has been a character just as long as Superman but doesn't need any of that to continue to resonate. No undue praise heaped up his character for existing

    DC comics was started before Superman was created not the other way around

    The first use of the word Superhero predates Superman by a good 20 or so years and many characters created before him a la Doc Savage or even mythological characters like Hercules could be said to have the same influence on the genre


    DC has a problem and in many ways its born out of the nostalgia mining, puffed up significance being crafted onto the age of these characters. The further back a character debuts does not mean they are more important. That's an idea that is stiffing DC and keeping them from introducing new heroes

    Snyder in many ways respects the history and what's been published before him but he is also moving forward with new ideas. The last time we almost had a crisis with a new villain and propped up by new characters was too long ago
    Perpetua
    The Empty Hands
    Batman who Laughs
    his gimmick of the knightmare dark multiverse
    all new ideas

    If someone ever wrote something like Thomas or Martha Wayne being literal jenga pieces that if removed the entire universe will collapse we have a problem. Silly fun with is what comics are supposed to be not meta fictional circumstance to rewrite history
    I mean DC just had to make WW their first hero again but then we fall right back into the practice of Superman worship =/
    First of all, It's not ma and pa that was important. The jsa was.The Jsa's return made superman's life better is what doomsday clock said.

    Regardless of dead or alive parents superman would still be fighting a neverending battle for truth and justice on the side of the weak, the oppressed and the defenceless.why?superman was fighting metas and requesting manhattan for help before parents became alive again. The whole trunks debate never happened in doomsday clock either. You are entirely factually wrong on both of these points. Superman wore the trunks even before doomsday clock ended.

    Riiiight, All the tower of babels, having characters with great intelligence keep falling for "i threw a rock at him" logic to be made into "the most dangerous man" is not undue praise at all. /s
    Doomsday clock just gave a cosmic "mumbo-jumbo" explanation for how new worlds are formed in multiverse with first superman narrative being at the centre. This one,


    It didn't make dc heroes into, "superman and friends" which is what jl is touted as. That kind of treatment is what actually makes other characters irrelevant(cough! Cough! Batman and his bitches) .


    Ofcourse, that also means Dc comics was started before batman as well. Infact the first superhero in a sense from dc, doctor occult was another siegel and shuster creation. That doesn't mean a thing. There might have been guys like phantom, zorro, tarzan, doc savage... Etc. All these guys didn't create the superhero boom. They didn't make superhero term popular either. Superman created the boom with action comics #1. No amount of "there were others before him" is gonna change that. As said, even batman is inspired by these characters before him. Hercules is a folk tale. He isn't a superhero. He isn't pulp fiction character either.Saying hercules is a superhero is like saying sun wukong is a superhero. These guys predate superheroes as a concept, nor do they abide by those rules. Superman being the first narrative that propelled and spawned new superheroic narrative is not unearned. It's giving the story(doomed planet, desperate scientist, last hope, champion of the oppressed ... Etc) its due,which is what doomsday clock did.It's quite frankly nothing but stating a fact. I will only fault doomsday clock for calling superman the first of the costumed heroes. Which would actually be zorro or phantom. But, from dc's perspective it is entirely factual. Superman is the first costumed vigilante.

    Perpetua might be a new idea. But, batman who laughs is as innovative as superman who frowns. Sure, you just contradicted yourself. If superman was so revered by dc management , would the first superhero tag be so easily taken away from him?
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 07-15-2020 at 08:16 AM.

  6. #261
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    This comic is funny. This amuses me.

  7. #262
    Astonishing Member Nite-Wing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    It didn't make dc heroes into, "superman and friends" which is what jl is touted as. That kind of treatment is what actually makes other characters irrelevant(cough! Cough! Batman and his bitches) .


    Ofcourse, that also means Dc comics was started before batman as well. Infact the first superhero in a sense from dc, doctor occult was another siegel and shuster creation. That doesn't mean a thing. There might have been guys like phantom, zorro, tarzan, doc savage... Etc. All these guys didn't create the superhero boom. They didn't make superhero term popular either. Superman created the boom with action comics #1. No amount of "there were others before him" is gonna change that. As said, even batman is inspired by these characters before him. Hercules is a folk tale. He isn't a superhero. He isn't pulp fiction character either.Saying hercules is a superhero is like saying sun wukong is a superhero. These guys predate superheroes as a concept, nor do they abide by those rules. Superman being the first narrative that propelled and spawned new superheroic narrative is not unearned. It's giving the story(doomed planet, desperate scientist, last hope, champion of the oppressed ... Etc) its due,which is what doomsday clock did.It's quite frankly nothing but stating a fact. I will only fault doomsday clock for calling superman the first of the costumed heroes. Which would actually be zorro or phantom. But, from dc's perspective it is entirely factual. Superman is the first costumed vigilante.

    Perpetua might be a new idea. But, batman who laughs is as innovative as superman who frowns. Sure, you just contradicted yourself. If superman was so revered by dc management , would the first superhero tag be so easily taken away from him?

    The creation of Superman spawned the DC universe that idea is of course ignorant of the characters before him
    That idea is in its own way a put down on every hero after him and continues to dump refuse on every new character that sees the light of day today. "Oh thank Superman without him we wouldn't get a great character like sideways" nonsense



    Batman may get a few events centered around him like Metal and this(even though its clearly a WW story) but the DC universe is still getting rebooted and retooled behind the broken franchise that is Superman. "Oh we need to fix the marriage, Oh we need to change his costume, Oh we need to get rid of his kid!!!!!!".


    Every time there's a reboot its because of his influence and to that point its not earned because a good franchise wouldn't need to constantly be rebooted every decade. That by itself is honestly the gripe many should have over other characters not having enough respect to stand on their own but have to be slaves to the Superman line

    There's never been a line wide relaunch in the DCU because of some mess that happened in the Batman title and that will always make what DC is doing with Bats more palatable

    DC doesn't even respect its other characters enough to have them ignore the toxicity of Superman. We are finally in a good place though and it seems like all the pedestal crafting for Superman is behind us.

    Honestly Batman has nothing to do with Superman he was inspired by the pulp heroes like the shadow and zoro who debuted several years before Superman. Its just funny how so many heroes who owe nothing to Superman have to bare that moniker "since he was the first"


    He is definitely the first example of a char clone which spawns endless archetypes over the flying brick hero

    Death Metal is definitely turning Batman into a char clone too but that's a gimmick and not played straight like with Superman
    Last edited by Nite-Wing; 07-15-2020 at 12:51 PM.

  8. #263
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Death Metal is not clearly a WW story. Its a Batman story, and she's along the for the ride in a major role. Its smoke and mirrors peddling this as a WW event. I would also highly disagree that DC is in a good place right now. Sales are down, Marvel is back to unequivocal domination with DC stuff only making a top ten list if its Batman, or a milestone issue/special.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 07-15-2020 at 01:01 PM.
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  9. #264
    Extraordinary Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    The creation of Superman spawned the DC universe that idea is of course ignorant of the characters before him
    That idea is in its own way a put down on every hero after him and continues to dump refuse on every new character that sees the light of day today. "Oh thank Superman without him we wouldn't get a great character like sideways" nonsense



    Batman may get a few events centered around him like Metal and this(even though its clearly a WW story) but the DC universe is still getting rebooted and retooled behind the broken franchise that is Superman. "Oh we need to fix the marriage, Oh we need to change his costume, Oh we need to get rid of his kid!!!!!!".


    Every time there's a reboot its because of his influence and to that point its not earned because a good franchise wouldn't need to constantly be rebooted every decade. That by itself is honestly the gripe many should have over other characters not having enough respect to stand on their own but have to be slaves to the Superman line

    There's never been a line wide relaunch in the DCU because of some mess that happened in the Batman title and that will always make what DC is doing with Bats more palatable

    DC doesn't even respect its other characters enough to have them ignore the toxicity of Superman. We are finally in a good place though and it seems like all the pedestal crafting for Superman is behind us.

    Honestly Batman has nothing to do with Superman he was inspired by the pulp heroes like the shadow and zoro who debuted several years before Superman. Its just funny how so many heroes who owe nothing to Superman have to bare that moniker "since he was the first"


    He is definitely the first example of a char clone which spawns endless archetypes over the flying brick hero

    Death Metal is definitely turning Batman into a char clone too but that's a gimmick and not played straight like with Superman
    I didn’t realize Superman was the one who got Dick Grayson shot in the head. Seriously point to one example of Superman having any impact on other characters outside his own books. The BWL’s bullshit derailed Supergirl into an event tie-in for God’s sake. Look bud it’s clear you’re a Batman fanboy which is fine, but your anger over DDC seems less “I don’t like Superman being elevated over all these other characters” and more “I don’t like Superman so him getting an event that says he matters makes me angry whereas Batman getting pushed doesn’t”.

    And DDC wasn’t just about him and it’s completely disingenuous of you to say so. It was also about fixing the Flash franchise (which had been floundering for years), bringing back the JSA and Legion of Superheroes, and trying to make sense of DC’s broken continuity. That same broken continuity that said Tim Drake was never Robin or that “Tim Drake” isn’t his real name. Batman has been rebooted or are you somehow unaware of the complete cluster**** of Cass Cain and Steph’s status? They have messed with Bats, just not as much as the rest. The most broken franchise at DC right now is the Titans franchise, which lost most of its continuity and was put in the hands of incompetent writers, and in Rebirth had Batman show up and order Nightwing around like Dick is still an underling.

    If seeing characters “put down” to prop others up bothers you, do have any problem with Harley Quinn punking the Trinity in Heroes in Crisis? I bet the answer is “no”. Your entire post is defending that kind of stuff when it’s Batman or the Bat-characters, so give us all a break and stop pretending like the status of the rest of the DCU means that much to you. “Slaves to the Superman line” lmao.
    Last edited by Vordan; 07-15-2020 at 02:49 PM.

  10. #265
    Extraordinary Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    The creation of Superman spawned the DC universe that idea is of course ignorant of the characters before him
    That idea is in its own way a put down on every hero after him and continues to dump refuse on every new character that sees the light of day today. "Oh thank Superman without him we wouldn't get a great character like sideways" nonsense
    Geoff Johns is right. Have you read anything before superman and after superman? There is a stark difference in content and consumption. Before superman, these magazines where filled with tales of different heroes in various genres like comedy, action, scifi,horror... Etc. Stories were of different kinds as well. They weren't uniform in nature.Heck! Superman himself has changed in narrative format from standard pulp character to "superhero". They weren't superhero stories.Superhero stories generally involve people with power(usually vigilantes) acquired through various means(yes, batman included) beating "villains" or saving people. That's the standard narrative. You can also add the secret identity to the mix(generally) . So, saying superman's story is the first one that created superhero universe that is dc currently is, isn't disregarding anything prior. Its just stating facts. Why? Because anything prior wasn't really built as "superhero" story. I mean, would you really consider stick mitt stimson a superhero comic? And superman had a large hand in solidifiying this standard narrative

    You seem to hate superman for some reason. I can understand that. I hate harley quinn and batgod the same way.You gave full credit to zorro and shadow. Yet, that still leaves superman-mate. He was a vigilante who was scaring crooks and the corrupt before batman existed. On top of that superman is also inspired from zorro being the proletariat hero who romances a woman with two identities .Anyways,they are on record to want to cash in on superman's popularity to create another character like him.Bob kane even made colourful batcostume as first design which was changed(incidentally, siegel and shuster had an idea to have batlike cape for superman. I don't know the authenticity of this. But, yeah! That would have been a different world) . Heck! Even the competition like stan lee acknowledges the characters influence on him and the company . So, saying batman was wearing strongman suit cause of zorro or shadow would be stupid. Zorro didn't wear strongman suit. If you said phantom, i would have actually agreed. Anyways, i don't see any phantom influence in batman(if there was i would have found the character more appealing) . So, factually you are wrong. Batman can't be unconnected to superman. You can wish it. But, that doesn’t matter.

    As for superman being a mess of franchise. That i can agree you with. Superman only became mess because dc is a mess. And Correction, the reboots don't happen because of superman. Its the reverse. the stupid reboots, propping up other characters and apathy from the management broke the franchise. The only character that hasn't been rebooted is batman. Superman is only as convoluted as flash franchise, ww franchise or any other. Besides that, the character started only being broken to propup batman and others with stories like darkknight returns and injustice that stigmatised the character. Ofcourse, this approach to make superman "what batman isn't" hasn't helped the character either. Doomsday clock didn't make superman's story into dc's story. It only made it, the first superhero narrative. The story continued and split of. Many other characters became involved in the dc narrative . None of the other characters success is owed to superman.But,the genre itself is modelled by superman. That's just a fact,otherwise people would be wearing leather, cape and a hat of some kind (a design element i love) .They don't, they wear tights with radical design elements.So,it doesn't matter if its spiderman or sideways. That fact remains the same. We aren't just talking about designs either.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 07-15-2020 at 03:41 PM.

  11. #266
    Astonishing Member Nite-Wing's Avatar
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    I actually like Superman not as much as Batman but there isn't disdain. In fact I'd probably say I like Supergirl more than either of them.
    My only issue is when his significance as a character and a symbol is haphazardly used to signify he's better than other characters. As much as you want to object about all the power levels or cool things Batman gets to do, When it comes down to a primal storytelling foundation he is never the one who is lauded or praised or even enshrined. He is simply a character nothing more and DC badly needs to bring Superman back to that before he loses what's left of his good will.

    If someone just said Superman has the potential to be the strongest hero on earth and left it at that I wouldn't have beef with stories like Doomsday Clock but writing an entire DCU post mortem about how the universe ran off the track because his character changed is dumb. It also disrespects the characters who have attained greater prominence in this period like they aren't actually good just opportunists taking advantage of Superman's fall.

    Now mind you Bruce was created as a vigilante and he literally owes nothing to Superman. The time when he was created they wanted to do a bright costume but realized that would not mesh with the gritty dark shadow archetype they were going for. Batman and Superman were polar opposites in the end
    They actually had to neuter Batman to bring him closer to Superman. Much like the rest of the DCU lose what's special about each individual character when they continue these stories about Superman being the best of them.
    You could do it with the JSA
    You could do it WW
    You could do it with Flash
    You could even do it with Bruce
    but its about time to retire that story with Superman

    Mind Metal was a Batman story but it was also a DCU story and one that Bruce never received in his entire history. In many ways Snyder is introducing Batman into the DCU cosmology with these stories. He's turning the status quo and what has been done to death with Superman and WW on its head.
    Now you have new villains
    new multiverse
    new stories

    If I had to read another crisis storyline which came down to Superman saves the day or X has to stop Anti Monitor or Darkseid it'll be a waste
    Last edited by Nite-Wing; 07-15-2020 at 04:36 PM.

  12. #267
    Always Rakzo
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    Why has this thread suddenly turned into a Superman Vs. Batman argument?

    Anyway, I KNEW that Snyder's fanboyism towards his own Villain Sue was too strong to get rid of him. This book sucks.

  13. #268
    Astonishing Member sifighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakzo View Post
    Why has this thread suddenly turned into a Superman Vs. Batman argument?

    Anyway, I KNEW that Snyder's fanboyism towards his own Villain Sue was too strong to get rid of him. This book sucks.
    Probably because this series is a sequel or at least acknowledging the plot points of both the story that established Batman as a focus point to an evil alternate multiverse that is themed after him which had negative consequences on the dc universe as a whole (Metal) and the story that established Superman as the beacon of Hope and inspiration to the multiverse/metaverse (Doomsday Clock). Since both stories technically collide here, the arguments go down....at least that’s my working theory.
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  14. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by sifighter View Post
    Probably because this series is a sequel or at least acknowledging the plot points of both the story that established Batman as a focus point to an evil alternate multiverse that is themed after him which had negative consequences on the dc universe as a whole (Metal) and the story that established Superman as the beacon of Hope and inspiration to the multiverse/metaverse (Doomsday Clock). Since both stories technically collide here, the arguments go down....at least that’s my working theory.
    Not much of an argument though since Doomsday Clock was immensely superior than both Metal and Death Metal (I would say "Death Metal so far" but we all know how Snyder's endings work).

  15. #270
    Astonishing Member sifighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakzo View Post
    Not much of an argument though since Doomsday Clock was immensely superior than both Metal and Death Metal (I would say "Death Metal so far" but we all know how Snyder's endings work).
    I personally don’t have much stake in the argument, I’ve enjoyed Doomsday Clock and I’ve enjoyed Metal. So far I’m enjoying the antics going on Death Metal. If I didn’t like it I’d stop reading, it’s kind of that simple for me.

    For me it’s an entire DC universe thing. Yes Batman is a huge part of this event as a character and the villains, but so are other characters like Wonder Woman, Wally West, and Swamp Thing. I accept that Batman will show up because he’s popular and part of the universe as a whole but other characters do star and play a part as well. As long as I had a good time reading I’m happy.
    "It's fun and it's cool, so that's all that matters. It's what comics are for, Duh."
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